My friend WCMB posted this on her Facebook page. I’m reposting it with her permission:
Stuck In The Middle With Me: more musings on politics
I HATE the the accusation “you’re just spouting talking points”, whether it’s the left or the right using it. Because it’s a shortcut – a way of not having to engage the actual argument being made. It’s a way to dismiss truth or facts without bothering to incorporate them or counter them.
Both sides do that. I have this argument with both liberal and conservative friends. If I bring up how to solve healthcare, and the need for a nationwide program as the most logically efficient way to pool risk do it, the answer is not a refutation of my logic, but accusations that that is somehow in league with every socialist aim of the most radical leftist. Um, no. I am arguing PRACTICALITY, not ideology.
Some liberal friends have similar knee-jerk reactions: ” I cannot agree with or take seriously anything a conservative says, or any complaint they make or problem they point out, because if I do it means I am on their side with their entire agenda, or at least helping to forward it.”
The right tells me that I cannot advocate for any widespread use of govt as a helpful tool without being in favor of a massive oppressive State. And to that I say BULLSHIT. The left tells me that I cannot have concerns about the size of govt, the spread of unresponsive bureaucracy, and the dangerous powers that accrue to it when it becomes that complex, without being a nutty extremist in favor of abolishing every helpful thing the govt does. And to that, too, I say BULLSHIT.
Does anyone in this country ever LISTEN to each other anymore, and seriously address the genuine concerns being expressed by individuals, or do we only “listen” long enough to decide which label to put on the person so we’ll know whether to mindlessly applaud or demean them? It’s like ideologies have become a religion, complete with heretics.
It’s just fucking sad. I’m not a centrist/liberal because of blind “belief” or some utopian vision. I’m a liberal because I think that, practically speaking, it’s the most efficient and least oppressive way to run a society. And I can defend those tenets without assuming that anyone who points out holes in my theories, or downsides to the policies (and they do exist), is an evil hater who just wants people to starve. I am well aware that giving the federal govt more power, even to do good things, does indeed entail some State control of the individual. And I am not blind or in denial that there are risks in giving govt more power, and checks on it need to be there as well. But there are areas where I feel that risk is worth it, on balance. But I recognize the trade-off I’m making. I don’t just deny that it’s being made at all. It’s all about the balance. And I also recognize that we have given way too much power to the feds in some areas.
Maybe it’s because I have lived around conservatives all my life, and have had to defend my ideas to people who both a) vehemently disagree with me, and b) I know for a fact to be good, caring, intelligent people with some logical basis for their concerns. And addressing those concerns is a lot more “liberal” than just telling them they are stupid and hateful. I have conservative friends who, when I take seriously their concerns about overwhelming govt, are reassured that no, not all liberals are hell-bent on turning us into bankrupt communist russia. And they, in turn, are able to assure me that no, not all conservatives want to turn this country into a rigid uncaring theocracy that does zero for the disadvantaged or helpless. And once we’ve done that, we can then have an actual discussion about where the lines ought to be, and what protections need to be in place so that NEITHER extreme comes to be.
Whatever the group dynamics, or group rhetoric, or group emotions on either side, the fact is that we have to deal with each other as individuals. Human beings. Real ones, not caricatures of “lefty” or “winger”. Because we both exist in this country, and neither is going to be eradicated. We’re going to have to deal with each other, whether we like it or not. No one is going to achieve their dream of the “perfect” society, right or left. No one is going to “win” here. Only persuade, and endeavor to forge solutions that will ALWAYS be imperfect.
This is why I hate political labels. All political labels have the effect of dividing “us” from “them.” (And of course we are the good guys and they are the bad guys.) Once the sides are identified they start entrenching their positions and strategizing over how to defeat the enemy.
A marriage counselor once told be that if a husband and wife think in terms of “his and hers” rather than “us” the marriage is doomed, it is only a matter of when. Unfortunately the advice came too late to be of any use for me.
People are afraid of one another. And it’s sad.
A leftie like myself can’t look at a conservative and say, “Ya know, some of your fears about an oppressive State are legitimate fears – so here’s how I’d work it so that that did not come to pass.” No, I’m expected to poo-poo their concerns and jeer at them. And I won’t. Because history is full of examples of the State doing just that, and that fear needs to be addressed.
A conservative can’t look at a liberal and say, “Ya know, your concerns about the corporatization of America, and the grinding down of the little guy, are legitimate fears. Because it happens, and it sucks. Here’s how I think we could retain individual liberties and responsibility while still addressing that.”
And WHY can’t we do that? Partly because if we do, from either side, the howls of “TRAITOR TRAITOR TRAITOR!!!” start from our own damn “side”. It’s all hair-on-fire “RINO!! DINO!!!! Are you a freaking moonbat? Are you a freaking wingnut?? You are encouraging the eneeemYYYYY!!!!!! ARRRRRRHHHHH!
The one thing the powers that be do not want is for average americans of many political stripes to start saying “Fuck you all – I’m not playing this game anymore. I’m going to pay more attention to talking to my neighbors than to listening to ANY of you assholes.”
I’m probably the last un-facebooked person in my state, so thanks for reposting wmcb’s “stuck in the middle.”
I’m not really in the middle, more like at the bottom, but I sure do wish someone would start Stuck In The Middle Party.
Hi, I saw a link for this place over at Klownhaus.
I am another person who has chosen not to do Facebook… and I was wondering where WMCB had done to. I very much agree with the sentiment of “don’t be a hater” and try to understand the viewpoints of others without demonizing them or acting superior. That is why I rarely comment on political blogs any more. Also I have chosen to minimize my mental participation the the Left-Right-Center paradigm as I no longer wish to identify myself within it due it’s lack of usefulness in the real and complex multidimensional world. I believe in having conversations about issues not arguments based on labels. I’m just an independent unbeliever now, period (ex-lefty, culturally liberal).
“It’s like ideologies have become a religion, complete with heretics.”
Excellent point! Political ideologies are a form of religion… a kind of a civic religion… and have always been so. I’ve been studying spiritual philosophy and religion for many years and was fascinated to discover that both politics and economics generally operate very much like religions… with strong believers who battle for the domination of their narratives with the natives in order to gain power over them.
My main problem with political blogs is how seriously and self righteously people talk. I can only take it in small doses. Humor is a better approach, IMO.
I’m not on Facebook either. Can read wordpress, obviously. Subscribing to Clownhaus and here if I may.
As to ‘talking points’. Unless it’s shown false, there’s nothing wrong with using a fact that someone is using as a ‘talking point.’ They’re using it because it’s important and brief. If it’s been used a while, and no one has yet shown it false, then it’s probably true.
Nothing wrong with saying Palin did a good job in Alaska, got good ratings from both sides, tamed the oil companies, etc. All true.
Hi to the other arrivals via Klownhaus and the WCMB! Screw ‘talking points’, that’s just a well organized lie usually.
Couldn’t help notice the resemblence of your us and we and them being wrong (to paraphase), to how religions works as well. Of course it was “state” that eventually (in this country supposedly anyway) that got separated from “church.” But the “our” way/religion-politic is still alive and well around the world…and coming together here these days as well…not to state the obvious.
Some people treat politics like religion, especially in regard to heretics and apostates.
Agreed. And politics having its genesis in religion can only free itself from these teachings but so much. Unfortunately, it has gone back to its roots much so as its current discourse displays daily.
When I went to school, we had teachers who said
I am going to teach you about communism because you can not fight what you do not know.
Other teachers who said ,each of you will study a religion other than your own to teach tolerance.
One of my jobs on the railroad was a train dispatcher.
We had to listen and repeat and understand word for word on train orders and such given over the radio.
Listening and understanding seem to be lost arts any more. Until we do listen to each other we will never understand and respect each other.
WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS
PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE CHATTERING PEOPLE RULE