I used to make my living going over police reports and evidence. So that’s what I’m gonna do today. Here is the Initial Shooting Report provided by the Sanford Police Department. It is only a partial report made by the first two responding officers. It does not include the detective’s report or any forensics/autopsy information.
Let’s start with the basics. Sanford, Florida is an incorporated city in central Florida (near Orlando) with a population of 53,570 people. That makes it about 2/3 the size of my hometown. I am fairly familiar with how police departments work in medium sized communities. That is why I am fairly sure that Sanford does not have its own CSI department or a dedicated homicide unit.
One thing I am very sure of is that homicide investigations in the real world look nothing like the ones you see on television. I have noticed a lot of the reporting and commentary on this case is based on the idea that every department has a Horatio Caine who can find fingerprints on blades of grass and who can recover DNA from the killer’s shadow.
On television the crime is always solved and the killer is dead or in custody by the end of the hour (unless it’s a two-part episode). Processing a crime scene or searching a house takes about five minutes and manpower is unlimited. Oh, I almost forgot – on television a murder scene will have about 50 different people wandering through it.
Let’s look a real investigation:
Officer Ricardo Ayala and Officer Timothy Smith both wrote reports. I’m going to go through the events as reported then discuss them.
It was a dark and stormy night. (I always wanted to say that). It really was night time and we know it was raining, but we’re not told how heavily it was coming down. Shortly after 7:00 pm on February 26, 2012, Officer Ricardo Ayala received a radio dispatch to 1111 Retreat View Circle to check out a report of a suspicious person. While he was en route to the scene he was notified by police dispatch that there had been calls reporting shots fired in that same area.
The only thing that jacks up a police officer’s adrenaline more than a “shots fired” call are the words “officer down.” It’s a safe bet that every officer who heard that call was heading to the scene Code Three.
If you look at the picture at the top of the post you can see the letter “A” designating 1231 Twin Trees Lane. 2821 Retreat View Circle is the building immediately to its right. Here is a closer view:
The scene is located inside a gated condominium community named The Retreat at Twin Lakes. As you can see there is a grassy space and a sidewalk between the buildings. It is unclear exactly where the incident took place or how much lighting and visibility was available.
The first officer to arrive on the scene was Timothy Smith. Here’s his report:
As Smith arrived he was advised of the shots fired reports and that there was someone laying on the grass between 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle. Smith walked between the buildings and saw Zimmerman standing there and Trayvon lying face down on the grass. Zimmerman told Smith he shot Trayvon and informed the officer that he was still armed. This is a standard requirement for people with concealed weapons permits when they are contacted by the police.
We can safely assume that Smith already had his weapon drawn and pointed at Zimmerman. If Smith received the same training I did he would have ordered Zimmerman to get on the ground, face down and spread-eagled before proceeding to cuff and search him. Regardless of technique, Smith cuffed and searched Zimmerman, finding his pistol in a waistband holster.
Smith stated in his report that Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of his head. He also stated that Zimmerman’s back was wet and had grass on it. About this time a bunch of different things start happening.
Officer Ayala arrived. Smith told Ayala that he had not checked Treyvon. Ayala checked him and got no response. About then other officers arrived and they started CPR. While they were trying to revive Treyvon, Smith took Zimmerman to his patrol car. He states that Zimmerman received treatment for his injuries, during which time he stated “I was yelling for someone to help me, but nobody would help me.” Smith did not question Zimmerman. He transported him the the police department and placed him in an interview room where he was later questioned by Investigator Singleton.
When Ayala arrived he found Smith holding Zimmerman at gunpoint. While Smith was dealing with Zimmerman, Ayala checked Trayvon but got no response. Sgt. Raimondo arrived and he and Ayala began CPR. Sgt McCoy arrived and took over CPR from Ayala. Paramedics arrived and took over CPR from the police. At approximately 7:30 pm Trayvon was declared dead by paramedics.
Officers Mead and Wagner began marking the scene with crime scene tape. Officer Robertson began a crime scene log. Lt. Taylor arrived and told dispatch to have Major Crimes respond to the scene. Mead and Wagner began taking witness statements. The Major Crimes unit arrives and takes over the investigation.
So far we have nine cops and at least two paramedics at the crime scene. It would not surprise me if there weren’t a few more cops there as well. Not only that but according to the face sheet of the report the scene was processed by someone named Diana Smith. That’s at least twelve people. At some point there would have one or two people from the medical examiner’s office there to bag and tag the body. Forensics would be a big mess.
I’m guessing that Lt. Taylor, Diana Smith and the Major Crimes detective were on-call rather than on-duty. It is unclear who Diana Smith works for. Homicide investigations only take place a few times a year in most medium and small communities. Here where I live crime scene techs work for the state department of justice and work out of a regional crime lab serving all the agencies in a multi-county area.
My crime scene training was simple: Secure the scene and check it for additional victims and/or suspects. Get out and stay out until the investigators arrive.
The first two officers (Ayala and T. Smith) did a pretty good job. Smith handcuffed Zimmerman and searched him, securing his pistol (priority #1 is officer safety). Then he took Zimmerman to his patrol car, got him first aid, then transported him to the police station where he was kept on ice until he could be interviewed by the investigator assigned to the case. Smith didn’t question Zimmerman but was listening in case he made any spontaneous statements. Pretty much textbook.
Ayala checked Trayvon and administered CPR. He was designated as the initial reporting officer. This is just routine procedural stuff, he wasn’t going to do the investigation. Had it turned out to be a minor incident his report might have been the only one made. If you look at the time he turned in his report it was after 3:00 am, so he was probably at the scene for several hours.
But neither officer was in charge after Sgt. Raimondo arrived. Either Raimondo or McCoy was calling the shots until Lt. Taylor took over. Chances are Taylor was looking over Investigator Singleton’s shoulder too.
Here’s an idea of what took place after Trayvon was declared dead:
Everyone stood around with their thumbs up their asses and scratching their balls until Singleton arrived on the scene. Extraneous officers were ordered back to their patrol duties. When Singleton arrived the official investigation begins. Some pictures are taken of the scene from various angles.
At some point someone from the medical examiner’s office arrives with the meat wagon. Trayvon’s body is now evidence so it has to be “collected” properly and a chain of evidence maintained. The first thing the ME people do is shove a big meat thermometer into Trayvon’s abdomen to obtain his liver temperature. The ambient temperature is also noted. This is to determine official time of death.
Depending on departmental procedure Trayvon’s clothes may or may not have been searched at the scene. When they have done all the on-scene stuff they are supposed to do, Trayvon’s body is bagged and removed from the scene then transported to wherever autopsies are performed. The autopsy probably took place the next day.
The scene is then processed. This includes examining the area to look for bloodstains and other evidence, and the collection of same. In this case I wouldn’t expect to find much. There should be an ejected cartridge laying somewhere. Unless there was an exit wound in Trayvon’s back there wouldn’t be a slug to search for and there would only be one main pool of blood. Between the rain and everyone trampling through the scene there won’t be much else to find. There is no indication that anything else was found.
Even so, all of this would have taken a few hours. At some point Singleton went to the police department and interviewed Zimmerman. I’m guessing it was at least 2-3 hours after the shooting. There were just too many things Singleton had to do first.
Suspect interviews are one of the most critical parts of an investigation. If it was me the first thing I would have done is mirandize Zimmerman. Some cops don’t like to do that for fear the suspect will invoke but my experience is that, guilty or innocent, people like to talk. I would also want the interview (including the reading of rights) to be videotaped. I would make sure I did everything right because I would not want any confession or admission excluded on a technicality.
Assuming the suspect wants to talk my first question would be simple – “Tell me what happened.” Then I would sit there and let him talk until he stopped. Whenever he slowed down or stopped I would ask open-ended type questions to keep him going.
Then once he had gone through the whole thing once I would have him go back over it in more detail. No matter what I thought of what he was telling me I would let him tell it. If he wants to lie, let him lie. Then I would go over it again and again.
I would never raise my voice or threaten. I’m not really a believer in games either. After the second or third time through I would start focusing on inconsistencies (if there were any) and I might deliberately pretend to misunderstand something he said to see if he corrects me or not. You would be surprised how many guilty people are eager to confess.
By the time Singleton was done interviewing Zimmerman and processing the scene this is what the police had:
Zimmerman saw Trayvon and called 911 to report him as a suspicious person. Zimmerman said Trayvon was running away and started to follow. Zimmerman said he was returning to his vehicle when Trayvon attacked him. Zimmerman sustained injuries to his nose and back of his head.
A witness saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, beating him. He said Zimmerman was yelling for help. Other witnesses heard a man yelling for help and a gunshot. No one saw the fight start or the actual shooting. Zimmerman said he was in fear for his life and shot Trayvon in self-defense. Trayvon was unarmed.
Zimmerman’s story was consistent with the witness statements and the physical evidence. They have enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman for a violation of Florida Statute 782.11:
782.11 Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.—Whoever shall unnecessarily kill another, either while resisting an attempt by such other person to commit any felony, or to do any other unlawful act, or after such attempt shall have failed, shall be deemed guilty of manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
In California the charge would be involuntary manslaughter. It’s what’s know as “imperfect self-defense.” Self-defense is still a valid defense if the defendant had a genuine fear for his life and that believe was reasonable.
Let’s say someone pointed a fake gun at you and tried to rob you. You’re not in real danger of getting shot but you think you are. That belief would be reasonable. But let’s say he just pointed his finger at you. Even if you genuinely believed his finger was loaded, that belief would not be reasonable.
Normally you can’t use deadly force to avoid getting beat up. But if you honestly and reasonably fear your assailant is going to do more than beat you up you can use deadly force even though they are unarmed. Whether or not you are justified in using deadly force is normally a question of fact for a jury. But a prosecutor has both discretion and a duty to only bring cases they believe they can win.
Here’s the deal: They might have had probable cause to arrest but did they have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of Zimmerman’s guilt? It is very common for police to wait until the investigation is complete before making any arrests. There were still some things they didn’t know that night.
Indications are that the police did not identify Trayvon until the next morning. Without his identity they had no way to check for a criminal record. Toxicology reports won’t be available for a few days either. What if the police arrested Zimmerman and then discovered that Trayvon was a known gang-member who was high on cocaine when he was killed?
Actually, the toxicology report may be the only interesting thing to come out of the autopsy. We know he was shot and who shot him. The CPR attempt would have really messed-up any forensic evidence on the skin and clothing. If the toxicology report shows drugs or alcohol in Trayvon’s system that will help Zimmerman.
If I was the defense investigator I would want to know a lot more about Trayvon. Where was he staying? When did he leave the house? Where did he go? Is the place he was killed between those two points? I once won a case where a girl said my client and another boy tried to rape her on the way home from school. One problem with her story was that the place she said it happened was the opposite direction from her home. That’s why you check these things out.
The media says he walked to 7-11 to buy an iced tea and some skittles. According to Google the nearest 7-11 is almost two miles away and it was dark and raining. My kids wouldn’t walk next door on a rainy night, but then I’m from California. What time did he arrive at 7-11? There should be a register receipt showing a purchase of an iced tea and Skittles with a time and date stamped on it.
Trayvon was on suspension from school. His family says it was for a minor violation. I’ve heard two versions of what he was suspended for – one was for being in a restricted area and the other was for excessive tardiness. I’ve also heard it was for five days and another version says ten days. Ten days is two weeks – that’s kinda excessive for being tardy to class. I don’t know if either of those versions are true but I would want to find out.
The family and friends of Trayvon would like us to believe he was an innocent and peace-loving young man who never had an evil thought in his life. They have supplied the media with pictures of Trayvon that were taken two or three years ago.
Young men of all colors commit serious crimes every day. Some are barely in their teens. I am not insinuating that Trayvon was one of them, but if he was I sure would like to find out. A thorough investigation would look into both men’s past histories.
Investigations are always going to be affected by bias and subjective factors. When you speak to witnesses and suspects you can’t help forming opinions as to who (if anyone) is telling you the truth. I’m guessing that the cops felt that Zimmerman was being sincere and honest. If he was arrested and tried then a jury would use their own judgment to basically do the same thing, but the opinions and reactions of the police play a big role in what a jury sees and hears.
In law school you learn that the testimony of one witness, if believed, is sufficient to support a verdict. If one witness says the blue car ran a red light and hit the white car and twenty witnesses say it was the white car that ran the red light and the jury believes that one witness over the twenty then that’s okay.
When we talk about “weighing” the evidence we don’t mean quantity, we mean quality. Juries hear the testimony and look at the physical evidence and then they decide what the facts are. Findings of fact are rarely overturned on appeal.
Prosecutors have an ethical duty not to prosecute cases if they believe the defendant is innocent or if they can’t win. Let’s say a prosecutor knows the defendant is guilty but can’t prove it. He knows the defendant is guilty because he made a signed confession. But the prosecutor can’t prove he’s guilty because the judge threw out the confession and that was all they had. The prosecutor has no choice – he has to drop the charges.
In this case the question is whether they can they prove Zimmerman is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Maybe. But then again maybe not. We don’t know exactly how strong or weak the case is. Should they prosecute Zimmerman anyway just to satisfy the
lynch mob public?
Maybe Zimmerman is a cold-blooded killer who staged the whole incident so he could murder Trayvon and get away with it. I would have to say that was possible but highly unlikely. But maybe a few years from now he starts bragging about how he got away with murder. In that case he could still be tried.
But what if he really is innocent? Imagine an angry jury voting to convict him because they are outraged by what they heard in the media. Jurors aren’t supposed to pay attention to that stuff but they often do anyway.
Sometimes shit happens. Undercover and off-duty cops get shot and killed by other cops. Wild Bill Hickock killed one of his own deputies by accident. If a bullet has your name on it then it will find you. Fate is a dreadful bride.
I suspect that Trayvon and Zimmerman were both sure that they were in the right that evening. Once the confrontation started it quickly escalated out of control. I’m just wondering how many other young black men have been killed since the night Trayvon died?
Doesn’t anyone care about them?
This is the kind of “just the facts” rundown we never get from the media anymore.
isn’t that the truth? 🙂
I saw on twitter chatter last night the grand jury’s meeting April 10 and Zimmerman’s attorney is expecting there will be charges for his client.
Can’t find a reliable news source yet. If there are any ? The Orlando Sentinel seems to be on the side of the sweet innocent boy .
Wonder if there’s a security tape from that 7-11 ?
Great report myiq, I love facts ! Well, what we know so far…… 😉
Does anyone expect Zimmerman to get a fair trial? I think Obama ensured that Zimmerman won’t.
How long before we hear the warning/threat of “riots occurring” were Zimmerman found not guilty?
If that were the result, then they should send him to live with Casey Anthony 😀
Excellent analysis. Thanks!
nicely done, myiq…the hypocrisy of the msm is staggering.
Good factual analysis. Thanks for taking the time to look at those pesky facts.
Objectivity. It’s so rare these days, I don’t even know what to say when I see it.
Excellent and level-headed analysis. Letting the facts lead to a conclusion, not the other way around like the MSM and the mob are doing.
Here’s one to ponder. Officer says he had grass on back of his head and a bloody nose, which agrees with the statement that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman. Zimmerman says he screamed for help. This is confirmed on the audio tape, although Trayvon’s family and friends says it’s him screaming for help. Okay, so now Zimmerman has to shoot Trayvon in self defense. When did he shoot him? Did he manage to get out his gun while TrayVon had him pinned? That could be possibile, considering the yelling stops within seconds of the gunshot……except that if Zimmerman did shoot him with Trayvon on top of him, wouldn’t Zimmerman have had Trayvon’s blood on him? So far, we haven’t seen that in the report. That doesn’t mean it’s not there, just that we haven’t seen it reported. However, if he did not have TrayVon’s blood on him, then he had to have shot him when the two were not in contact. Would this change the nature of the self defense situation? Other possibility is, he managed to change positions with Trayvon and get on top before shooting him. Still, would there not have been some blood splatter with a gunshot that close? I’m no investigator, so what do you think, Myiq?
Those are all things we don’t know yet, uppity. I don’t think that myiq, or anyone else here, is proclaiming that Z did nothing wrong, or saying we know it all, or even saying that the shooting was justified. We do know that some kind of physical altercation happened, leading up to the shot. Whether that meets the standard for self-defense is unknown at this point. Z was injured by Trayvon, but a lot of scenarios are possible.
Mostly we’re just saying that the whole lynch mob mentality is nuts, and painting this guy as a crazed racist who went looking for some black kid to shoot in cold blood, for no reason whatsoever, is not warranted. Wait and see.
The physical evidence can been spun different ways. I can imagine scenarios that point to Zimmerman’s guilt that are consistent with the physical evidence and witness statements that we have so far.
But the law says if there are two (or more) reasonable interpretations of the evidence and one of them points towards innocence, the jury MUST acquit.
I like the way you stated that myiq2xu. The ‘jury’ must acquit. The officers/investigators ought not to decide the guilt or innocence, the court holds that responsibility.
I have seen a comment that there was no casing found which usually happens if a gun is being held during a struggle and can’t slide to eject the casing and load the next bullet. But that’s just someone’s guess without much information.
It would be unfortunate if blood or no blood on Zimmerman wasn’t noticed or recorded, and of course taken as evidence. It wouldn’t say anything one way or the other about the guilt or innocence if any evidence were lost, but it wouldn’t help the mob mentality later on.
Does anybody know what kind of gun Z was carrying? If it was a revolver, there wouldn’t have been any case left on the scene.
According to the police report it was a Kel Tek 9mm semi-auto.
It was a Kel-Tec PF-9 or PF-11, most likely a PF-9. 9x19mm also known as 9mm Luger or Parabellum.
Cops spelled it wrong but correctly phonetically
Picture of the PF-9: http://keltecweapons.com/uploaded_files/ourguns/gallery/b_91028d013dcee98eec3996410c641941PF9_4045.jpg
I wasn’t actually implying that Zimmerman didn’t shoot in self defense. My third eye on this thing has been fluttering all week. What I am saying it, the trajectory of that bullet and the distance it traveled is key here. It could be possible that this is evidence that is being withheld, and it could also be a reason why Zimmerman was never arrested. The idea that during the fight, they may have switched places would account for the two women who said the Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon–which conflicts with the other testimony that he was pinned by Trayvon. In this case, he would still have been shooting in self-defense. Distance is key here and we are not reading a thing about it, which leads me to believe that the police are in possession of that evidence but not releasing it. In any event, there would also have to have been some contact with Trayvon’s blood. This was a 9mm pistol, so it’s not likely anyone was thrown around after the discharge, but still there would have to be blood, expecially if Trayvon were on top. For all we know, there could have been a gun struggle too. I just think there’s a lot missing here that eithe isn’t released or the press is not covering. Hard to tell which, with our useless press.
Well, that’s one minor question cleared up. The suspension was for having a baggie with pot residue in it, not for being tardy, as first claimed.
Well possession of a baggie with pot residue is a far cry from being tardy.
Or an excuse for those who dont mind an unarmed black kid being slaughtered……HE SMOKES WEED….that makes him a degenerate that probably deserved to be killed! This guy hunted down and killed this young man but most of us dont care cause it would never happen to us or the ones we love!
Breathless hyperbole while straw-manning much?
Seemed more like pearl-clutching to me.
And BTW, I don’t think that Trayvon smoking pot is in itself necessarily a big deal, or has any bearing on the case.
What is more interesting to me is that a) there was an initial lie that the suspension was for being tardy b) when this hit the news, Trayvon’s family immediately had his school records sealed, and c) now his family is admitting that the suspension was for possession.
Probably for the same reason they are using a pic from when he was an adorable pre-teen for news photos.
I can understand why they wouldn’t want to use his twitter or FB photos where he’s showing off his tats and his grill, but I don’t know why they don’t use his current school photo.
It’s not lying, exactly, but it doesn’t enhance credibility.
I also don’t think the possibility that this kid smoked pot bears on the case, except to explain why he was in this location. If the toxicology report comes back positive for THC it might have an effect, but will play a minor role, I think. Pot is not a hard drug.
That said, in a more speculative fashion, if Martin was high during the altercation, it would explain why he was meandering through the neighborhood looking at stuff, and may have intensified his own sense of suspicion.
He could also have been looking for or waiting for a drug connection so he could get hooked up. That would explain why he was willing to go out in the rain.
But that’s all speculative and doesn’t prove anything anyway.
Right now it’s speculation. It will depend on that toxicology report. If it comes back positive, then Zimmerman’s phone call to dispatch gets more credibility. Remember he was saying it looked like there was something wrong with him, like he was on drugs.
About Zimmerman’s actions: he may end up being exonerated in this case, but he did make serious errors that someone with his background should have avoided. He should never have left his car. His gun should not have been with him once he did. And he should not have pursued Martin, even if just to see which way he ran. These are basic rules in Neighborhood watch training programs. Of course, they are routinely violated every day in America.
There are some claims that his Facebook page indicates he may have been dealing. There is one exchange with a friend who tells him to pick up his phone, they have “business” to discuss. The friend then says “damn were u at nigga needa plant”.
Friends have also left “memorial” pictures with blunts, etc.
Again, none of that may have jack-all to do with what happened. But the dynamic of the narrative that seemed intent from the get-go to deliberately hide this kind of thing, and portray him as the picture of innocent wholesomeness, use much younger pics of him, etc, is interesting. It’s almost like they set the narrative of “psycho white racist” vs. “black choirboy” deliberately to get the racial outrage ball rolling….
I have yet to see any evidence that this shooting, whether justified or not, had anything at ALL to do with race. I’d be curious to see what organizations and people were in close contact with his family before this all broke in the news. Who agitated this? I could be wrong, but I doubt his family made it a race war themselves – they were grieving and understandably wanted the shooting looked into more thoroughly. I’d bet someone did some “nudging” and narrative-shaping from the beginning. Unless I’m wrong, I am curious about who that was.
Grieving, but open to financial opportunities. Incredible.
Mother Seeks Trayvon Martin Trademarks
MARCH 26–The mother of Trayvon Martin has filed two applications to secure trademarks containing her late son’s name, records show.
Sybrina Fulton is seeking marks for the phrases “I Am Trayvon” and “Justice for Trayvon,” according to filings made last week with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. In both instances, Fulton, 46, is seeking the trademarks for use on “Digital materials, namely, CDs and DVDs featuring Trayvon Martin,” and other products.
The March 21 USPTO applications, each of which cost $325, were filed by an Orlando, Florida law firm representing Fulton, whose first name is spelled “Sabrina” in the trademark records.
Martin, 17, was shot to death last month during a confrontation with George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain. Martin, pictured above, was visiting his father’s home in Sanford, Florida when he was shot to death by Zimmerman, who has claimed that he was acting in self-defense.
I think maybe this isn’t a great website…? So the whole article is up there, no one has to click on it. I added in Xs anyway
The pot thing doesn’t have a bearing on the case, but it does negate the patter on the neworks that he was suspended for being tardy.
…….thus, it does beg the question, What other lies have been told on TV?
And Zimmerman getting into a physical altercation with the police isn’t a big deal to you either is it? His record isn’t squeaky clean , but that’s okay because he’s not BLACK…..and maybe you can clear up the initial lie that was told Trayvon was shot in his chest.
No, it wouldn’t be a big deal either. We’re talking about facts and a little guessing of course. Race is not an issue for us. Apparently you have a problem with evil, evil Peruvian Americans. 🙂
Just suspended for pot residue ? Wouldn’t the police be involved with that ? Not sure how schools deal with this now, but wouldn’t they want to have a sit down and a “where did you get this son?” with him ?
I’m just going with reports he has no police record.
The cops wouldn’t do anything without a usable amount in the bag.
Another source has found a tweet from one of Trayvon’s friends saying he swung at a bus driver.
Another source, the school, said Trayvon was found in an unauthorized location.
So, with the admitted ‘possession’ that may mean Trayvon had a confrontation with the school authorities that ended in a lengthy suspension…and caused him to be angry and primed for a fight.
Zimmerman’s first 911 call to the police said he has spotted someone acting suspiciously, like they were on drugs.
It is likely that all information has not yet been released – and that is probably a good thing with an ongoing investigation before a possible trial.
What bothers me is the Obama administration’s demonstrated ability to silence, remove and fake evidence and to escape investigation and accountability.
More on the case from Drudge Report and yahoo:
Tell me did you see and hear the 911 taping that instructed Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon…..So what if he was high or not………The whole altercation could have been avoided and Trayvon would be alive today if Zimmerman wasn’t so eager to play rental cop.
I did. There’s a lot we don’t know. But it does seem like after he was told that they didn’t want him to follow, he said OK and stopped, and likely returned to his vehicle.
Of course, if Zimmerman wasn’t on watch duty, this wouldn’t have happened. And the neighborhood watch would prefer their members not carry arms, though it was perfectly legal for Zimmerman to carry one. Perhaps if Zimmerman didn’t’ have a gun, he might be the one dead. There’s a lot we don’t know. Apparently you know even less but think you know it all.
Avoiding facts as they come out makes it easy to stick with a story that started with no facts. Keep up the good work.
That’s a terrific piece, myiq. I know I learned things I hadn’t known.
The Laci Peterson case was local news where I live.
She “disappeared” on Christmas Eve 2002. She was probably murdered the night before. The cops knew almost immediately that Scott Peterson was the killer. He wasn’t arrested until April 18th 2003.
Here’s how they knew he did it:
He said that the night before (12/23) they had gone together to her sister Amy’s hair salon where Scott got a haircut. He said she was eating breakfast when he left the next morning to go fishing. When he returned she was gone but her Land Rover and purse were still there.
They asked Amy what Laci was wearing when she last saw her and Amy described a gray maternity outfit. No such outfit was found anywhere in the house. Laci was not in the habit of sleeping in or re-wearing dirty clothes and there were plenty of clean maternity clothes in the house. So simple a thing but it told the cops that Scott was lying.
But that wasn’t enough to arrest him.
Myiq, are you aware whether the FL police closed the case months ago, or if they left it open but with no arrest?
thank you for your objective report.
the heartlessness of the politicians who are using this is sickening.
the race baiters who make a living off the misery of others is just low.
I worked in an industry where safety rules were written in blood. so I can understand how a situation can be looked at to make safety rules. But this situation is just being used to bolster politics and hate.
It just occurred to me – If they arrest and try Zimmerman I wouldn’t be surprised if it ended up with a hung jury.
Then no one will be satisfied. There will never be any closure.
That would be the best possible outcome for Al Sharpton though. Must be his wet dream. He could ride the “racism” charge on this for the rest of his days.
He will anyway.
The Al Sharpton race baiting comedy hour. It’s must-see TV (to believe).
police release zimmerman account to orlando sentinel
At news conference, Trayvon Martin’s mother says, ‘They’ve killed my son and now they’re trying to kill his reputation’
Submitted 44 secs ago by editor
This woman will be in pain for the rest of her life, no matter what the outcome. Those using the situation for their own agenda really do not give a damn about her pain
Of course it isn’t nice and may not seem fair because the kids drug history may not be a factor. But then again, it may. Also the mother is the one that launched a civil suit against Zimmerman. That means the gloves are off. And I can only assume at this point her statement is meant to try to shut people up and stop investigations.
Ralphie B’s version of events:
Now there’s some serious kool-aid drinking. There’s actually nothing in that post that relates to any known facts. Not an easy accomplishment.
We really don’t know much. We know Zimmerman’s story, a couple of eye witnesses, at least three call recordings, physical evidence, and the police reports. That boils down so far to what’s in this post. Lots more may come out.
But the wild and crazy speculation seen at that site along with the insanity drum beat for a lynching from MSM and the likes of Al Sharpton and the New Black Panthers can only lead to more suffering and other tragedies.
Some of that is from emotions unchecked, but some is for political gain. One thing we do know from past history, once the case is settled or forgotten, those that have suffered will be toss under the bus when they’re no longer useful.
Good Lord. I love the assertion that when Z and T exchanged words, Z must’ve said something “derogatory”. Really? And you know this how? Does Z have a history of racist comments? Nope. But don’t let that get in the way of a good “evil racist pig” story.
Ralph evidently knows with certainty not only what happened, but even the thoughts that were in Z’s head and his every motivation as well. Amazing.
Kool-aid is a hellofa drug.
Mom applies to trademark Trayvon Martin name.
Jeebus. I’m not going to try to draw money grubbing conclusions from that, she may just be advised to do such things. But the optics of that aren’t particularly good.
You’re right, TSG wasn’t helpful, but now that I remember, here’s why the Anthony’s trademarked Kaylee’s name …..
I’m guessing it’s to prevent others from exploiting the name. Can’t say as I blame her.
There will be a hoodie and matching sneaker line coming soon……
I like how they say “originally told police”, as if he has a different story now. They could have kept to the facts by just saying he “told police”. Of course it’s accurate, but the choice of words is interesting.
This was apparently leaked by the police.http://www.wesh.com/r/30764028/detail.html Things are spinning out of control if the police dept starts leaking unauthorized stuff. The police chief has already stepped down. Could this jeopardize the investigation?
Never let a crisis go to waste, to fundraise !
Directly profiting from a tragedy. I’m shocked, shocked I tell you.
The copyrighting I actually have no problem with. Other people are selling “Trayvon gear” with his image, etc. The mom’s lawyer probably told her a copyright would stop that crap, stop THEM from exploiting her dead son’s name.
Really good video by a black female conservative radio host on the whole brouhaha:
New post at Legal Insurrection with new developments in case. http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-case-heading-towards-the-political-abyss/
There’s a comment on L.I.’s post by cubz_fan that was endearing and brilliant too. A must read to compliment myiq’s and Prof. Jacobsen’s posts. The media really is missing the mark on this one. As a black dad first and an attorney second…….whoa, if it wasn’t so long, I’d quote it here, but the entire comments section is a must read too 🙂
Agree, DeniseVB. Noticed the same comment. Also, did you see the latest update at L.I. re Miami Herald story re Trayvon having been suspended last Oct? He was found by school security in possession of women’s jewelry and a screwdriver described by security as a burglary tool. The school, however, suspended him because of spraying lockers with graffiti. Interesting.
P.S. Here’s the link http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-case-heading-towards-the-political-abyss/
The update also includes this from Daily Caller.
“Martin tweeted under the handle “NO_LIMIT_NIGGA,” an account that was closed shortly after his death.
The image attached to the Twitter account when Martin died matches one that has been widely distributed. That photograph of Martin depicts him smiling, gold-toothed, into a camera in front of an electronic dartboard.”
Yeah, the “burglary tool” made me go hmmm….
Leaves one to think, how does a young person get money for pot ? Either the dealer pays you in pot for refering new customers, dealing or petty theft.
wonder how long it will be before they start trashing this man for telling it as it is?????
OT: Good for a laugh, check out the video in this tweet
Oh, goddess, he is SO pathetic….thanks to Danish TV for handing the repubs a campaign commercial.
Sarah has a new FB post on Obama’s Flexibility Open Mic
Now Poland may be freaking out about Obama’s open mic talk with Medvedev
So OT, but is that runaway Mom in the pic?
Looks like her, late 30ish, dreds. Last I heard, or saw, she was arrested on one of the Brooklyn Bridge blockage thingys, looking tortured by the two officers trying to restrain her.
Funny the “real” homeless are irritated with them too 🙂
How about this… racism, classism and misogynism all on one t-shirt
the actual law in Fla
Did Zimmerman say “goon” or “c**n”? Does implying someone is a “goon” constitute a “hate” crime?
Joe Oliver, a family friend of Zimmerman’s who spoke with him this weekend, told ABC News that…
“There are people who have accused George of profiling, well, I would think as a watch commander you are keeping an eye out for people you don’t recognize in your neighborhood. The reason why he was following this suspicious person that he saw was because the neighborhood had a rash of break-ins,” he said.
The Zimmerman family friend also denied that a word the watchman is heard blurting out on one of the 911 tapes is the racial slur, “c**n.” Oliver said the word he hears Zimmerman saying is “goon.”
Oliver said he believes the voice screaming for help on the 911 tape is Zimmerman’s.
After talking with Zimmerman, Oliver says he’s convinced that it came down to a final life-or-death moment: “At that point, either George or Trayvon was going to die.”
Sounded to me like he said “fuckin punks”.
[audio src="http://ace.mu.nu/archives/zimmermanpunks.wav" /]
Well done myiq2xu. Thanks.
It is well done, I realize it even more now after taking a quick look at some lefty blogs that I would expect to be more level-headed — there is an epidemic of people believing the media narrative hook line & sinker.
You a better person than I am. I totally expected it & would’ve been shocked if the reaction wasn’t hyped exactly the way it was.
What calls itself the left these days dropped any pretense of being level-headed about anything on the day Obama announced his run for the presidency.
Ew! Ew! Ew! Ewww! *doing the “get the creepy spider offa me” dance*
Specter is such a scheeve.
What a creep.
Stuck in moderation because of two links. Sigh.
Thanks for letting me out of there!
This was just a horrible tragedy. The media and the politics are acting as if this was a deliberate, cold blooded, racial crime.
Where I live we have a cop who shot his partner when his mistook him for the suspect and a woman killed when the cops kicked in her door and saw her reach for her remote. Those are two recent incidents that probably didn’t even make the news. My point is, tragedies happen and it’s not always because people have malicious intentions.
This very simple truth is almost impossible for many people to understand.
…from atop the tower of babble….The New York Times today referred to George Zimmerman of Sanford, Florida as “a white Hispanic”…..a what? So it would then be ok to refer to Barack Obama as “a white African(American, if you need that part)? …as we spiral even more toweringly into babblemania…
They’ve all gone nuts. It’s surreal. They’re listening to tapes with ruffling and breathing sounds and wind and imagine they hear words. They know for a fact what happened when none of us know. And what they know is the opposite of all the evidence and witnesses, because, you know, they “know”
What’s really scary is the completely over the top, almost funny because they’re so nuts, New Black Panthers, don’t even look like the craziest people in the circus.
His race is white, his ethnicity is Hispanic (and something European from his father’s side). Hispanics are either white or black for race.
It depends where they are from.
Some Hispanics are of nearly pure European descent. Others are nearly pure African. Many if not most are actually Native American.
George Zimmerman had Peruvian blood mixed with a multiplicity of other ethnicities, and had a number of black (Afro and Afro-mixed race) family members and friends. Zimmerman and Martin are simply Americans, as Newt Gingrich said. In regard to this case, they should be treated equally, respectfully and without prejudice on the basis of evidence alone.
Being dead does not make Treyvon innocent, a folk hero or a martyr as Jesse Jackson is trying to make him.
A family source stated Treyvon was suspended because of drugs. Another source, a tweet, said he had ‘swung at a bus driver.’
Another said it was for being tardy.
It could have been all of the above…resulting in a confrontation with school authorities and a suspension – leaving Treyvon angry with a big chip on his shoulder and cocked and loaded to attack Zimmerman.
Moreover, now the Martins are going to Washington, to get justice.
Just hope Obama and company are not going to try to turn this into a Sandra Fluke political drama…but with his record, and this economy, distraction and the race card, OWS-Union chaos and racial riots are all he’s got.
If the Trayvon Martin photo at the link had been flashed across TV screens for the past number of weeks instead of the several-years-old doe-eyed-innocent photo, perhaps the agenda-driven leftist LSM, the race hustlers, the Obamacrats, leftists, et al, might have thought twice before pushing their “try, convict, hang” in the court of public opinion narrative re George Zimmerman. Perhaps BO might have thought twice before commenting that if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon. http://dailycaller.com/
Like Reagan, Obama can’t speak without a script. “If I had a son” was so staged that I’m tickled the Obots got all choked up. This tragedy has a life of its own.
I saw somebody opining that the police should have impounded Zimmerman’s SUV.
On what basis?
It wasn’t contraband. There was no probable cause to believe it contained evidence.
I’m just waiting for the obvious insane loopy logic that’s sure to happen: if you don’t see racism in what happened, then you’re racist.
Dissenting Justice has a post up with a) all kinds of just wrong “facts” and b) the accusation that if you don’t see the racism in this case, which is clear as a bell to him, you are most likely white and suffering from implicit bias.
I’ve increasingly seen the invention of facts that are easily disputed by the evidence we already have. And the parents accusing the police of trying to smear Martin just by releasing the info they had, which, btw, they were previously calling for the release of. It’s become a complete circus.
Not true, Lola. The article does not claim “facts”; it challenges Zimmerman’s story using the information he told cops, along with 911 tapes and other information. This article speculates about the crime too – but you seem to love it.
Second, the essay does not say that you must see racism in this case. Instead, it says that implicit bias is a societal problem that could affect how people see this case. Also, the author says that implicit bias affects people who are racial egalitarians, meaning you don’t have to be a bigot to be impacted. You seem to think this is laughable. But it’s not.
I’m guessing this is a sock, but okay.
That article makes up events that are not in the record and labels them as facts. I have been very clear here to label when we’re discussing the record and when we’re discussing speculation, and have been very careful to use words like “suggests to me.”
I didn’t use enlarged, emboldened font to claim that there is a hole in the case, and then go on to assert without any evidence at all, and despite the facts outlined in many witness accounts and in police reports that Zimmerman and Martin scuffled at his car. They did not. Darren did do that. He made that up, and lots more in that article.
And the implicit bias is a subtle charge of racism. Yes, Darren seems to think that even enlightened progressives can still be racist, they just don’t know it. His charge there is meant to suggest that we should just back right off our own ability to reason and let him and his fantasy of what happened take precedent. Yeah, um, no. I think for myself.
Darren also said that Zimmerman left his vehicle despite being told not to by dispatch. Also a made up fact. Zimmerman was clearly already outside of his vehicle and following when the dispatch told him he did not need to follow Martin. He didn’t defy police orders as far as we know.
That’s what I mean about invented facts. Some people, upset that this case does not fit their justice need or their vision of victimization in America, are trying to force it to work. But making stuff up and trying to force it is a credibility killer.
No, Lola. You are making up things in the article and describing them as “fact.” The article uses tentative language throughout — “if,” “likely” “could,” “would.” Although you claim that the author is an ideologue, you are proving yourself to be the ideologue.
Zimmerman himself said he was back near his car when Martin attacked him. The author of the blog also said in an earlier article that Zimmerman was already leaving the car before he hung up with 911; I don’t see this changing here. WE know that Zimmerman had the chance to stay at his vehicle when the dispatcher told him he shouldn’t pursue Trayvon; he didn’t.
Finally, the author is not inventing data on implicit bias. Perhaps you are not a fan of science, but cognitive psychologists have been producing this research for years. People who actually take it seriously have used it to reduce discrimination in a host of settings. This stuff does not mean that people are racist. You chose to use that term. Instead, it recognizes that the brain is very complex. There is a nonconscious mind. By the way, this same data has been replicated with respect to gender and sexual orientation. I am actually a psych professor, and the research has been done for decades. People like you are actually part of the problem. You not only dispute nonconscious bias — you dispute science that you haven’t even read — in the name of ideology (not facts).
WE know that Zimmerman had the chance to stay at his vehicle when the dispatcher told him he shouldn’t pursue Trayvon; he didn’t
That’s a lie. We don’t know that. The evidence does not show that. The evidence shows that he was already out of his vehicle and chasing Martin when the dispatcher said they didn’t need him to chase. We don’t know exactly what happens after that, but a reasonable guess is that after he said “OK”, he turned around and returned to his vehicle. Based on this lie and the many in that article, I’m guessing you have a pretty ingrained story that you’re sticking too regardless of the facts. There is nothing factual that will change your story. This is what we like to call drinking the kool-aid.
I don’t know if he’s inventing it but at the least he’s repeating invented facts.
For instance the author states categorically, “He also referred to Martin as a ‘fucking coon,’ an obvious racial slur,” and that’s not been determined. The word on tape is garbled and unclear. I’ve listened to it and it doesn’t sound like “coon” to me, and many others have said it doesn’t sound like “coon.” But the author states as fact that Zimmerman’s reference to Martin was a racial slur, which is a big part of the mob mentality that’s taken over. If this killing didn’t have a racial narrative it wouldn’t be a cause célèbre.
That’s insane. So he’s not allowed to tell his side of the story until court. In other words, we’ve got a story we like, STFU.
I love that the post is about “what everyone needs to know…”. In other words, it’s about all you’re allowed to know.
And funnily enough, it seems that so far all the witnesses, calls, and Zimmerman’s story all seem to agree. Where’s the conflict?
Mr Pretzel Logic is an authoritarian. He would have liked the Star Chamber if he was in charge of it. The Star Chamber was a Court where sessions were held in secret, with no indictments, no right of appeal, no juries, and no witnesses. Evidence was presented in writing. Over time it evolved into a political weapon, a symbol of the misuse and abuse of power by the English monarchy and courts.
That kind of “but” is what I call “The devaluating but”. It simply devalues every opinion you’ve aired up till this point.
lack of thinking ahead?????
when you are on probation, I do not think you can carry a gun
He said on CNN he doesn’t believe in white man’s law (aka american law). He represents the military for black people. And he’s here to serve justice.
Sounds like he will be serving after all.
Myiq, your blog is nothing short of brilliant. Thank you for your careful, insightful and objective analysis. I learned a lot about the case. Look forward to more on this topic from you as additional facts surface.
Yes, this is an excellent analysis of the evidence. Appreciate your expertise, wisdom, knowledge and insight – and the wit/humor about what happens on the inside of law enforcement and processing a case.
Thank you for taking the time to write this all out. This is very helpful.
I was wondering about this:
Why do they have a duty to not bring cases they aren’t sure they can win? To save the public the money?
I used to work with rape victims, and the D.A. hardly ever prosecuted. We always heard it was because the D.A. is an elected position, and they want a really good conviction record so they can be elected again. Is there any truth to that, do you think?
Sometimes a criminal case cannot be made on the basis of evidence. Then, as in the OJ Simpson case, if the victim, family or a sponsoring agency has the resources, a civil trial may bring some form of justice.
In the end, only forgiveness brings real freedom and closure – vengeance never does. Vengeance and cruel punishment only bring bitterness and bondage.
Getting to the point of ability to forgive takes time, hard painful emotional work, help from counselors, the grace of God and ruthless courage and honesty. But the process is cleansing and brings life, health and peace and the ability to feel joy and hope again.
This all sounds suspicious. But he lived in a different part of Florida, and he was just at his dad’s girlfriend’s house during his school suspension – I wonder how many acquaintances he actually would have had there.
Also – have we heard anything about where his father or father’s girlfriend was? I read that the father had him grounded because of the suspension – so why was he allowed to leave the house?
And while it’s not illegal, I agree that it’s odd someone would go out in the rain to walk two miles each way – and just for one bag of candy and one tea? I don’t think I would have done that even when *I* was 17. But, different strokes…
Oh, wait – maybe the friends posting on facebook were from his hometown and didn’t know he was out of town….?
Just read where the NY legislators are wearing hoodies in honor of Trayvon Martin.
I have never been so sickened by the government of this country as I am right now.
If they get the race war they seem to be pushing for, just what do they think is going to happen to them???
Backtrack already thinks congress is expendable and not needed and I guess the state governments are not needed either as his people are always suing them when they try to make laws that protect the people of their states.
You say when the cops arrived, Trayvon was lying face down in the grass…was he shot in the front or back? I wonder why he was lying face down?
Good question. We don’t know. If he were on top of Zimmerman and got shot, I’d guess that Zimmerman had to push him off in order to get up. That could mean he could have landed in many different ways depending on angles, how Zimmerman was situated, etc. I don’t think I’d put too much stock in how he landed. Most important would be actually checking based on the wound and gun powder residues, etc. what the likely positions where when the shot was fired. From the reports it sounds like he was shot in the chest at close range.
I have the opposite question than the one with which you ended your article:
“How many white men will be killed because of the heightened racial hatred and division incited by the President and his friends, Sharpton, Wright, Farrakhan, Jackson, Spike Lee and the Black Panthers who are exploiting this case for political advantage?”
Here is Jesse Jackson at work declaring Treyvon innocent and a martyr – working up his congregation and putting thoughts in to their heads – http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tW1w0M9OV4s
Meanwhile the Panthers got Zimmerman kicked out of school – http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/03/26/black-panther-threats-get-hispanic-man-kicked-out-of-college/
Where were Jackson, Ferrakhan, Sharpton, Spike Lee, the Black Panthers and Obama when this happened in 2009: http://teresainfortworth.wordpress.com/2012/03/24/mr-president-if-i-had-a-son/
And this happened on March 4, just a week after the Martin/Zimmerman incident:
For these children, victims of intentional race-based hate crimes, there were no apologies, no calls for justice, no marches, no memorial services and no expressions of condolence from the Rose Garden.
Statistics show the sad truth about violent crime. The majority of crime is committed by blacks against blacks, whites against whites, but the majority of two race crimes are blacks against whites.
DOJ statistics on murders from 1976 to 2005:
86% of white victims were killed by whites
94% of black victims were killed by blacks
Other DOJ numbers:
White-on-black crimes (90,717)
Black-on-white crimes (429,444).
Click to access cvus08.pdf
Again, I believe this is being blown up for political gain, to keep the black vote for Obama, despite the evidence that shows his presidency has hurt Black jobs, incomes and businesses.
Again, I believe this is being blown up for political gain – to accomplish two main goals:
A. To keep the African American voters in his camp in spite of the enormous harm Obama’s presidency has been for black prosperity, jobs and businesses:
AFRICAN AMERICAN UNEMPLOYMENT – http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?id=LNS14000006
AFRICAN AMERICAN INCOME
BLACK OWNED BUSINESS – http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/daily-brief/2011/02/09/census-figures-reveal-pre-recession-boom-for-black-owned-businesses/
B. To distract from the other Obama failures and outrages:
– The economy, jobs, business killing regulations,
– Green Energy Scams
– Insane spending and mis-spending
– Fast and Furious
– Gas/Oil prices – because of Obama’s loyalty to OPEC, Buffet and Soros
– Obama’s war against the states on Voter ID, Borders and Illegals.
– His foreign policy intrigues, deceptions and disasters
– His assaults on free speech, conscience, the Churches.
– His poorly manufactured Birth Certificate and Draft Registration card.
You pretty much nailed in. It’s to keep the AA vote (& the white guilt vote) and distract from actual issues.
I think it is also to incite public unrest, scare the independents, so that later BO can come in and soothe the waters and save the day.
Oh yeah. And the Supreme Court arguments.
Interesting additional details trickling out. We’re now hearing Martin had a “burglary tool” on his position. Whatever that means. And we’re hearing more details trickling out from the longer Zimmerman interview that Martin is the one that went for Zimmerman’s gun during the fight.
Of course we don’t know yet. Those are just rumors. The most interesting thing to notice are the crazy reactions about this case. Given that we don’t know much yet except for Zimmerman’s story, the on the scene witness, the longer distance witnesses, the various 911 calls, and the police reports, and most of those all seem to agree with Zimmerman’s story, the over the top assumptions of something very different are fascinating.
Unless there was a second one, the “burglary tool” I read about was not at this incident but at the vandalism incident that caused Martin to be suspended from school the time before he was suspended for an empty marijuana baggie. Apparently he and a pal were seen on a security camera writing “WTF” as graffiti on a school locker and when Martin was searched the security personnel found some women’s jewelry and a screw driver (which they called a “burglary tool”) in his backpack. Martin apparently said a friend had put the jewelry in there but wouldn’t name the friend.
That could easily be the same “burglary tool” I just heard about. It’s not like we’re getting a coherent story from MSM, so you have to take these trickling in reports with a grain of salt.
Plotting a timeline out in the media would be fascinating. Who wrote what, when and where. Then look at prior work, associations etc. I bet someone is doing it as I write this before things start disappearing.
Smell a Journolist type thing going? Could be.
On the actual case, my speculation is that it will hinge on physical evidence and two witnesses – the 13yo eyewitness and Martin’s 16yo girlfriend who was on the phone with him.
I hope someone is, Lulu.
For instance, this TIME headline originally used the word “Murder” and later changed it to “Killing” (TIME admits it at the bottom of the article), and notice the sweet younger innocent looking picture of Martin and the picture of Zimmerman wearing orange looking like a convicted criminal.
New post up
Finally found an article relatively fact-based on this whole Zimmerman/Martin killing. It’s lengthy, but if you want an actual explanation of what happened that night & NO SPIN ON IT, give it a read. I found it interesting.
46 calls to 911 since 2010 to report “suspicious” people or activity. In a gated, suburban community. Have many times have any of YOU called 911? I daresay that Mr Zimmerman has some sort of fixation or obsession. Possibly he is a wannabe cop who, knowing that he could not be a real one, appoints himself “neighborhood watch captain” and torments the cops with calls about “suspicious” stuff, real or imagined. IMHO he was in need of mental health treatment.
Actually it’s 46 calls since 2006, which is less than one a month. The place is a gated condominium park that had been dealing with a rash of burglaries.
Is it possible he was just worried about the crime problem in his neighborhood?
46 calls in seven years is what I read. 46/7=6.5 calls a year. That’s an average of about 1 every two months.
And the guy was on his neighborhood watch, so he could have had every reason to make that many phone calls in that capacity. I wonder what a comparison of neighborhood watch 911 calls for comparably situated communities would show.
Have you ever worked a neighborhood watch? Because they call the cops all the time. This community has had a lot of crime and robberies and break-ins, 8 or so in the last year alone.
So no, 46 calls is not unusual, and that was NOT since 2010, BTW. That was a reporting error corrected to 46 calls in the last eight years. Get your facts straight.
I could “daresay” a lot of things about you, too, but I won’t. Want to know why? Because I’m not idiotic or hubris-filled enough to imagine myself a mind-reader privy to all your thoughts and motivations. To do that would be the actions of someone who was….well…..delusional.
Trayvon was not murdered, he was killed in self-defense after he attacked George Zimmerman. God bless you George.
So much bias, conjecture, omission (narrative of the phone interaction between Trayvon and girlfriend) and yes, untruth (not all of the witness reports were consistent with Zimmerman’s statement (ie. Cutcher, et. al.) I was hoping for a thoughtful, honest account, using all of what’s known, but no. How about a tox that night on the shooter, why not? Zimmerman’s arrest history ’05 and ’06, should have been accessed and at least a tox would be indicated based on that. Your account looks like Ayala had virtually no contact with Zimmerman when the police report BY AYALA documents a brief q/a. All you want from an autopsy is a tox? How about pre/postmortem injuries to his hands? This looks like it was written by a child with an agenda, and intended to entertain the ill-informed.
A toxicology report that showed Zimmerman was under the influence of drugs or alcohol would prove what? I didn’t include the girlfriend’s statements because they are hearsay and are NOT in the report. As for inconsistent statements, that is all conjecture. We haven’t been able to read what the witness statements were. Even if we had their statements, none of them have been examined/cross-examined under oath. Check that statement of Ayala again – it doesn’t mention any q/a.
I’ll give you half a point on the pre/postmortem injuries to Trayvon’s hands. Bruised and bloody knuckles would be consistent with Zimmerman’s version. So would Z’s blood on T’s hands. OTOH, the absence of injuries or blood would not prove anything. Powder burns on T’s hands would indicate a struggle for the gun – again supporting Z’s version but not proving innocence.
BTW – This is a civilized blog. Disagree all you want, but keep it polite.
Kudos on a clear presentation and discussion of the “known knowns”. Sorry that it interferes with so many people slobbering over the “unknown knowns”. Can’t wait to see them suddenly interested in other many things once the “unknown unknowns” come to life. Someday soon, tragically I believe, the progs will say, “Trayvon who?”
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I don’t think Zimmerman was in his truck when he called 911, I believe he was at the mailboxes, up to no good. He spots trayvon, coming from the clubhouse, I think Trayvon walked by Zimmerman. once he passed, Zimmerman went back to his truck(which was parked across from the mailboxes) then says” these assholes always get away” then you here a muffled (“yea”) as if somebody is with zimmerman. Zimmerman then says” he’s running”.(I don’t think Trayvon ever ran, he would have been home before Zimmerman got off the phone with 911) he then opens the door (from the outside) grabs the gun,maybe a flashlight? Takes off and hides in between the units. (thats why you hear that echo sound in the 911 call.) I believe Zimmermans accomplice followed Trayvon down the path, (& getting his ass handed to him, by the kid) That would explain the white T-shirt. Zimmerman comes out of the shadows, shoots the kid. the accomplice takes off. Zimmermans standing their with a flashlight.. To me Zimmerman is like those firemen who set fires. so they could get their first to be the hero. this time it went to far….
On the off chance that this thread is not dead, I implore the author to check out the linked Fox Orlando video from Feb 27, the day after the shooting.
They had a crew their Sunday night, so we see footage of marked off areas with crime scene tape.
The reporter is there the next day; still plenty of tape.
I have only looked it over a few times, but… the intersection of the two sidewalks (to the right and above Point A) seems to be important. If that is where the final shooting occurred, Zimmerman was a lot closer to his truck than if he was directly behind 12321 Twin Trees Lane. (The distance is maybe 20/30 yards, so maybe close enough top say “my backyard”.)
They also interview “John”, who saw the fight, ran inside (and heard the shot), then called 911; he appears as a 911 caller.
Trying to pinpoint his house would be helpful. Well, not to him, obviously.
I’m convinced there is gold there, and since my IQ is half yours, you ought to take a look.
I posted a copy of that video in a post last night.
Yeah, yeah, and I have been linking to that Fox story for days. But the camera angles and final walk with the grieving dad give a pretty good spot for the actual killing.
So have you reached any conclusions as to just how far from the crosswalk intersection or his car Zimmerman might have been when the final shooting occurred? The further away, the more puzzling. But the camera work here moves him closer than the literal interpretation of “between 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle” (which, per Zillow, is to the right and down from 1231 Twin Trees Lane.) 1231 is the second house down; 2821 is the fourth house down.
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Tracy Martin said he was at dinner and believed his son had left with a cousin
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Couple of things to add for you, I grew up about 8 miles from the area so I know the town and the area a bit.
1) I would bet that Sanford does have a CSI unit, the crime rate for the area is pretty high. Even if they dont, the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office is about 7 – 8 miles away. The area of the shooting is not a nice area, I would not walk to the store in that area.
2) There IS a 7-11 to the west of the neighborhood on Rinehart RD that is about .7mi away. It is not on the maps but it is in the corporate listing so it is likely a new store.
Just thought it would be helpful to add this info for ya.
Now we see Zimmerman entering the police station.. I want to see the video of him leaving the station. Did the police take his clothes for tests?
Regardless of the outcome of the investigation, Obama et al, have assured riots will follow.
obama didnt say anything wrong. if anybody is saying anything incendiary, its the bigots that are attacking the victim saying he deserved to die.
There are people on both sides saying incendiary things. My position is that this is a tragedy with no winners.
First off, I too have a professional career in sifting through evidence and analysing it.
There is an obvious stumbling block in your analysis. You, and the police for that matter, accept George Zimmerman’s assertion that he gave up chasing Martin and that Martin back tracked to confront Zimmerman from behind while Zimmerman returned to his SUV. Zimmerman’s SUV was parked on the road. Zimmerman tells the 911 operator that Martin began running from him 2 minutes and 07 seconds into the call. The operator asks Zimmerman to identify where Martin was headed, and Zimmerman replies that he was headed for the back enterance to the neighbourhood (near where Martin’s house was).
So we know at that point, 2 minutes and 17 seconds into the call, that Martin was running from Zimmerman and presumably along the path between the buildings, that being the quickest route home and where he would eventually be shot. The operator then asks Zimmerman if he is giving chase, Zimmerman replies that he is and the operator tells him that it isn’t required. Zimmerman says ‘OK’ (2.28). This all happens within 21 seconds.
Zimmerman’s story, as you noted, is that he then began returning to his SUV. Given that Zimmerman began his 911 call at 19:11:12, that means that Zimmerman tells the operator that he has given up chasing at 19:13:40. His phone call ends at 4 minutes and 12 seconds, placing the time at 19:15:24. The officers arrive at approx. 19:17. So, if Zimmerman returned to his vehicle why did it take him 104 seconds+ to get back there when he told the operator ‘OK’ he wouldn’t follow Martin within 21 seconds. if he was returning to his vehicle and was jumped by Martin as he returned this would have been heard on the tape.
And if he were returning to the vehicle why is he overheard fighting with Martin on the path between the houses (where Martin’s body is found) some 50+ yards from the nearest road access and the closest possible point for his SUV to be parked?
Sorry, but that doesn’t add up. You don’t need to be an analyst or even a detective to work out that if Zimmerman really did stop following Martin and return to his SUV then he wouldn’t have been 50+ yards from the road down the path.
A lot can happen in a few seconds.
So let’s say Zimmerman begins chasing Martin but loses sight of him because Martin has a headstart. Martin hides somewhere between the buildings. Was Zimmerman trying to catch Martin or just keep him under observation? At some point Zimmerman stops chasing and begins returning to his vehicle. He is still between the buildings when Martin emerges and confronts him. Z may have run past Martin’s hiding place.
The fight lasts long enough for people to call 911 and be on the phone while you can hear yelling and a gunshot in the background. Dispatch tells Off. Smith that there were reports of shots fired at 19:17
Zimmerman’s vehicle was parked at the bend in the road. The chase could not have lasted long anyway, otherwise Martin would have made it to the back entrance. When Z stopped chasing did he immediately turn around or did he stand there for a few seconds looking and listening? I don’t know, do you?
The police went back to the scene with Z the next day and he walked them through his version of events. I’m sure that was in much more detail. The points you raise may have perfectly reasonable answers.
Chris, your analysis is shaky because A) we do not know how far form his vehicle Zimmerman was when he began returning to his vehicle, B) he ran away from his SUV but he walked back, that can be heard on the 911 call with his heavy breathing into the phone as he pursues Martin and then his breathing leveling out after he says okay and stops pursuing Martin, and C) Zimmerman didn’t say he made a bee-line back to his SUV or that he had returned to it, he merely says he was returning when Martin came from behind. That could be more directional (in the direction of his vehicle) than with the intent to actually end up at his vehicle. From what Zimmerman says to the operator it sounds like he’s looking around for Martin, concerned about being ambushed, and that distraction could further slow down his progress towards the SUV and also could make his path back even more erratic than direct.
To me Zimmerman sounds, after he stops running in pursuit of Martin, conflicted between wanting to find him and then, increasingly, concerned Martin could be nearby (like when he gives his address and then says something like crap I don’t want to give it out I don’t know where this kid is). Sounds to me like he’s stopped pursuing Martin, has changed from offensive to defensive posture, and maybe doesn’t want to actually return to his SUV and wait inside it like a sitting duck.
The mistake that Chris and many others make in this case is deciding that there is only one reasonable interpretation of the evidence. There are some missing pieces. Some of them will never be recovered (like what Trayvon was thinking) and some of them we have to rely on Zimmerman’s version of events.
So far we have no proof that he lied about anything.
The shooting is in the grass behind the second house. Trayvon is face down in the grass with his sneakers closest to the sidewalk. Zimmerman’s father was watching and – check the timing – right after the video was released of Zimmerman showing no significant head injury, Judge Zimmerman changed the defense strategy. He immediately went on the local Fox affiliate and said, “George went to move into the grass and then his concealed firearm was exposed, and Trayvon announced his intent to take the gun and kill George with it”
So you’re saying there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll?
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How bout this? When Zimmerman and Martin had their face to face confrontation and it was reported that they had words, Zimmerman went to pull out his phone to call police (maybe even give a show of the gun) and Martin saw his gun and thought that was what he was going for. No time to run, you just have to defend yourself. Then the life fight was on. Zimmerman never should have followed him, had a gun with him, and I’ll bet was not trained to defuse a confrontation but rather was threatening. Martin had to fear for his safety the moment Zimmerman has started to follow him whereas Zimmerman, the elder was out looking to protect the entire neighborhood without being trained or thinking of the consequences. Sad.