If We Disagree You Are Lying

No, seriously.


CBS Face the Nation asked David Axelrod why he and the President are now calling Governor Romney a liar (“dishonest”) about his tax cut promise for everyone being deficit neutral … and yet don’t call President Obama a liar for his 2008 unfulfilled promise about cutting the deficit in half by the end of his term (didn’t happen) and closing Gitmo (didn’t happen.)

Why is one candidate promiser (Gov Romney) a liar and the other promiser (Pres Obama) is not?

Apparently when it is his guy (Pres Obama) who makes promises that are unrealistic and or unfulfilled, Axelrod doesn’t think it a lie. (As an aside, Axelrod went further and blamed Congress for failing to close Gitmo. He did not explain the 1/2 cut in deficit unfulfilled promise.)

When it is Axelrod’s OPPONENT (Gov Romney), the campaign promise is a lie and the Governor Romney a liar.

I’m gonna disagree with Greta here. This is not about a campaign promise, it’s about the effect of a proposal. A broken promise is only dishonest if you never intended to keep it. That’s not the issue here.

I am not a beancounter and I have not reviewed Mitt Romney’s tax plan, but as I understand it he plans to lower the top rate and eliminate some deductions, which he says would have the effect of being revenue neutral.

Some pro-Obama economists say this would be a $5 trillion tax cut. Romney denies this. I don’t know who is right but either way we’re talking about opinion rather than fact. It may be an educated, informed, professional opinion but nonetheless the outcome of the proposed plan is not an incontrovertible fact.

This is more like the Stimulus. When the Stimulus was being debated, Obama claimed it would have certain effects on the economy and on unemployment. It didn’t work out as promised, but I would not say that Obama was dishonest, just that his plan failed.

If Obama and his underlings want to attack Romney’s plan on the basis that it is a bad idea that’s fair game. But they have no reasonable basis to call him dishonest.

What is dishonest is for Axelrod to suggest that Romney blindsided Obama with lies about his tax plan. Here is the relevant exchange:

OBAMA: When it comes to our tax code, Governor Romney and I both agree that our corporate tax rate is too high, so I want to lower it, particularly for manufacturing, taking it down to 25 percent. But I also want to close those loopholes that are giving incentives for companies that are shipping jobs overseas. I want to provide tax breaks for companies that are investing here in the United States.


So all of this is possible. Now, in order for us to do it, we do have to close our deficit, and one of the things I’m sure we’ll be discussing tonight is, how do we deal with our tax code? And how do we make sure that we are reducing spending in a responsible way, but also, how do we have enough revenue to make those investments?

And this is where there’s a difference, because Governor Romney’s central economic plan calls for a $5 trillion tax cut — on top of the extension of the Bush tax cuts — that’s another trillion dollars — and $2 trillion in additional military spending that the military hasn’t asked for. That’s $8 trillion. How we pay for that, reduce the deficit, and make the investments that we need to make, without dumping those costs onto middle-class Americans, I think is one of the central questions of this campaign.


ROMNEY: First of all, I don’t have a $5 trillion tax cut. I don’t have a tax cut of a scale that you’re talking about. My view is that we ought to provide tax relief to people in the middle class. But I’m not going to reduce the share of taxes paid by high-income people. High-income people are doing just fine in this economy. They’ll do fine whether you’re president or I am.

The people who are having the hard time right now are middle- income Americans. Under the president’s policies, middle-income Americans have been buried. They’re just being crushed. Middle- income Americans have seen their income come down by $4,300. This is a — this is a tax in and of itself. I’ll call it the economy tax. It’s been crushing.

At the same time, gasoline prices have doubled under the president. Electric rates are up. Food prices are up. Health care costs have gone up by $2,500 a family. Middle-income families are being crushed.


The second area, taxation, we agree, we ought to bring the tax rates down. And I do, both for corporations and for individuals. But in order for us not to lose revenue, have the government run out of money, I also lower deductions and credits and exemptions, so that we keep taking in the same money when you also account for growth.


And finally, with regards to that tax cut, look, I’m not looking to cut massive taxes and to reduce the — the revenues going to the government. My — my number-one principal is, there will be no tax cut that adds to the deficit. I want to underline that: no tax cut that adds to the deficit.

But I do want to reduce the burden being paid by middle-income Americans. And I — and to do that, that also means I cannot reduce the burden paid by high-income Americans. So any — any language to the contrary is simply not accurate.

Save this link. When somebody tells you Romney lied, tell them to show you where it is in the transcript.

But you better sit down while you’re waiting.

This entry was posted in 2012 Elections, Barack Obama, Mitt Romney and tagged , , . Bookmark the permalink.

77 Responses to If We Disagree You Are Lying

  1. DandyTiger says:

    I have called BS on Obot friends about this issue. They just bring up these various pro-Obama stories, or they bring up analysis that makes tons of assumptions about Romney’s plan. The truth is, the plan is just a plan, and not that detailed. As they said about the Pirate bible in the Pirates of the Caribbean, it’s really more of a set of guidelines. Just like Obama’s “plans” and goals. They are what they are. Plans never survive battle, so the real test is leadership and how you work over congress to get something reasonable. That is precisely where Obama has failed miserably. And that I suspect is where Romney would do better.

  2. simofish says:

    I fucking hate Obama. And the clip in the other post showing Hillary debating him — PISSED me off all over again. I want that fucker to lose big time Nov 6th. I want a landslide.

  3. HELENK says:

    off topic
    Eastwooding Muhamd

    but the islams will be going nuts again or still


  4. myiq2xu says:


    “Ah, the true mark of a campaign in a disarray,” Betsy Newmark writes. “Now it’s the Obama campaign that has aides giving anonymous quotes to the media that makes their campaign look bad.”

  5. yttik says:

    We have a small business so I guess that makes me a kind of beancounter. I can tell you, nothing Romney said was a lie. Hubby was cheering through the whole debate, “finally, somebody gets it!”

    You can raise taxes all you want but after a point that does not create any Gov revenue. The tax rate could be 75% but if we’re all broke and unemployed, we aren’t paying any taxes. Or you can take your foot off people’s necks, let them proper, broaden the number of employed people, and everybody pays a smaller amount but there are more of us.

    23 million unemployed and underemployed people is a whole lot of lost government revenue.

    So why are there so many unemployed people? Because many small businesses are now paying more than 50% of our incomes to various branches of government in the form of taxes, fees, and permits. That’s money we used to use for payroll. And we’re terrified it’s going to go up even more when Obamacare kicks in.

  6. HELENK says:




    this sounds like something meeeeschele would do

    • That’s bad, but it’s worse. There are now restrictions on getting non-generic forms of medication and your doctor can’t make that decision anymore. Your insurance gets to make that decision, and it’s mandated for Medicare/Medicaid. You have to get an exemption, IF you can get one. I’ve also heard that flex accounts have been halved, an effective tax increase.

      • elliesmom says:

        Some of the people who are being hurt most by the flex accounts being halved are the people who use them to make the money they spend on special education for their children tax deductible.

  7. HELENK says:


    pakistani military stops code pink at border.
    I was hoping they would come face to face with the taliban. It would have been a rude awakening for them

  8. angienc says:

    The TPC/Brookings Institute (the source Obama sites) has said more than once that their analysis did *not* conclude that Romney’s plan would result in a $5 trillion tax cut (BTW –that $5 trillion tax cut is over 10 years — so Obama is taxing an alleged $1/2 trillion tax & multiplying it by 10 years to come up with a figure to sufficiently *shock* people; now that *is* dishonest). Anyway, the TPC economist said that the effect of Romney’s plan depends on the loopholes that were closed along with the reduction in tax rates — it seems Obama has cherry picked parts of the analysis to come up with $5 trillion tax cut — again, that’s dishonest.

  9. angienc says:

    BTW — on the topic of “honesty” saying Romney is getting “tough” on Big Bird or wants to “kill Big Bird” is dishonest — he said he wants to cut funding for PBS, which isn’t the same thing at all, and the CEO of Sesame Workshop agrees:

    “The Sesame Workshop receives very little funding from PBS,” she said. “So we are able to raise our funding through philanthropic , through our licensed product, which goes back into the educational programming, through corporate underwriting and sponsorship. So, quite frankly, you can debate whether or not there should be funding for public broadcasting. But when they always try to tout out Big Bird, and they say we’re going to kill Big Bird—that is actually misleading, because Sesame Street will be here…Big Bird lives on.”


  10. DandyTiger says:

    Comment from FB. Shorter message: we’re smart so shut up:

    “It absolutely shocks me that Republicans today seem to think that they have the upper hand when it comes to intelligence. Granted you could say that liberals make the same claim but, when polls show that 96% of scientists, 92% of college professors and 94% of American Nobel Prize winners alive today vote Democrat…..you start seeing a pattern. It really does seem to have been broken down to the disenfranchised versus the uneducated whom don’t realize they are being disenfranchised by the very people whom they are voting for.”

    • lyn5 says:

      It’s more like the liberal elite vs. the rest of us.

    • yttik says:

      This is coming from the same people who want us to vote for the guy who allegedly believes in magic underwear and Big Bird??

      Seriously, I know I live in Nutsville, but today there were two protesters downtown. One sign said, “Save Big Bird” and the other said, “No to Mitt’s Magic Underwear.”

    • Yeah, I see a pattern here. Clever liars versus the plainly honest. I’m in academia. Trust me, a less critically thinking group you will not find. It’s a field of parrots. You should hear some of the shit I hear day and day out about people who ostensibly wear their class and racial sympathies on their sleeves, then talk about our students (predominantly poor, black, young, and female) behind their backs like the Klan used to.

  11. DandyTiger says:

    Oh hells yeah, I’m having me a ‘mater sammich. Mmm.

  12. DandyTiger says:

    This is what front porches are for:

    • myiq2xu says:

      The judge told me “I don’t care if your porch is private property. You still have to wear pants.

    • gram cracker says:

      And living rooms are for dancin.

      At about 2:40 and around 5:00 there are glimpses of an elderly man with age spots on his face. I am pretty sure that is Bascom Lamar Lunsford. He wrote the original Mt. Dew song. As a western North Carolina attorney he had defended many moonshiners. Bascom was a very distant cousin on my father’s side of the family. Never met the man but appalachian mountain music was a staple of my childhood.

    • DM says:

      And if you want to dance to that music, you can always learn

  13. 49erDweet says:

    It’s what West B G Virginia is for, too..

  14. myiq2xu says:

    Obama is up for both Math and Science this year.

  15. simofish says:


  16. myiq2xu says:

    “A person who gives too much importance to himself, to the extent that he does not think about the feelings and sentiments of other people is said to be a narcissist. People who are narcissists consider themselves to be perfectionists who can never do anything wrong. They are governed by their false ego which requires ample amounts of admiration and praise to survive. It is said that narcissists live in a world of their own where they can think only about their problems and issues regarding power, prestige and personal adequacy. This makes them selfish individuals who do not have the ability to understand the problems of people around them. Such people are said to suffer from the problem of narcissistic personality disorder. As their egos are very fragile, a slight disrespect or challenge can lead to the development of fury which can cause harm to the person who was the reason for such provocation…” —Deepa Kartha

    • Erin says:

      I work with some this describes perfectly. ANd it’s exhausting being on the recieving end of this part of the personality
      “… As their egos are very fragile, a slight disrespect or challenge can lead to the development of fury which can cause harm to the person who was the reason for such provocation…”

      Because EVEYTHING short of worship fits it.

  17. angienc says:

    I hope TeamRomney trims the beginning & cuts this into 2 30 second spots (there is a natural break where the screen goes black) and runs them nationally.

    As Iowahawk tweeted after the debate Wednesday night: Mene, Mene, Tekel, u-Pharsin (i.e., the writing is on the wall — from the Book of Daniel where the mysterious hand wrote those words on a wall which Daniel took as a sign of the end of the King’s reign).

  18. angienc says:


  19. myiq2xu says:

    Michelle Malkin:

    – Online donor credit-card fraud. Weeks before the 2008 presidential election, investigative journalist Ken Timmerman blew the whistle on rampant phony straw contributors slipping through the Obama donation site. Just one example: “Mr. Good Will” from Austin, Texas. Mr. Good Will listed his employer as “Loving” and his profession as “You.” Timmerman’s analysis of 1.4 million individual donations to the Obama campaign discovered “1,000 separate entries for Mr. Good Will, most of them for $25. In total, Mr. Good Will gave $17,375. Following this and subsequent FEC requests, campaign records show that 330 contributions from Mr. Good Will were credited back to a credit card. But the most recent report, filed on Sept. 20, showed a net cumulative balance of $8,950 — still well over the $4,600 limit.”

    Subsequent digging by conservative bloggers found that the Obama campaign’s donor website appeared to intentionally disable security protocols and facilitate illegal donations with bogus names, shell addresses and untraceable credit cards. Among Obama’s online “donors”: Bart Simpson, Family Guy, Daffy Duck, King Kong, O.J. Simpson, Mr. Doodad Pro, John Galt, Della Ware, Crazy Eight and Adolfe Hitler.

    • DandyTiger says:

      I always suspected Adolph (or Adolfe above) was still among us. 🙂

    • myiq2xu says:

      Obama’s campaign said it would refund the money to the foreign donors the AP identified.

      One donor, Tom Sanderson of Canada, made clear his $500 contribution came from a foreign source. He included a note that said, “I am not a American citizen!” Obama’s campaign took the money anyway, even publishing Sanderson’s cautionary statement about his citizenship in its official finance reports.

      Obama has raised at least $2 million abroad, far more than McCain’s total of at least $229,000, according to the AP’s review of campaign finance records…

      …The AP analyzed 1.27 million campaign contributions to Obama and McCain to identify 6,948 contributions from people who appeared to live outside the United States and who were not obviously in the U.S. military. The AP contacted 123 donors in Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Hong Kong, Israel, Italy, the Netherlands, South Africa, Spain and Switzerland and interviewed them about their citizenship and donations.

      Obama has far more overseas donors than McCain, and that was reflected in the number of interviews: the AP was able to reach 116 Obama supporters, six McCain backers and one donor who gave to both.

      Australian Richard Watters gave Obama’s campaign $1,000 over the Internet, entering a fake U.S. passport number — a random jumble of numbers and letters — so the site would take his money. He said he also checked a box stating that he was an American living overseas, “because I could see it wasn’t going anywhere if I didn’t do that.”

      Watters was surprised when a reporter told him it was illegal for foreigners to donate to U.S. presidential campaigns, but he said he was still glad he gave.

      …Swiss citizen Gilles Massamba gave Obama at least $436 and received campaign souvenirs. He said the campaign didn’t ask whether he was a U.S. citizen.

  20. Underwhelmed says:

    And also? You should kill yourself, because if we disagree then you’ve lost the right to live.


  21. Lulu says:

    We are going to see unstable people acting out in the next few weeks. They are going to say and espouse some very strange things. I think I am going to view it as if they were coming off DT’s or a chemical induced mania. We are seeing people who have invested so much psychologically in a con that they are having trouble believing what they are seeing. The ones that knew it was a con but went along for various nefarious reasons have stepped away quickly.

    The debate was the the tipping point. The final drive of media lead inevitability had been gradually building for Obama. The shock over the magnitude of Obama’s complete and utter humiliation is the critical point in an evolving situation that leads to a new and irreversible momentum. The preference cascade is set. The public now understands that any world leader can dominate Obama just as Romney did with a snap of their fingers. He is dangerously weak, dim, vain, and pathetic. He cannot recover because he does not have the ability and no one can do it for him.

  22. Lulu says:

    This is another chair cartoon and even better than the New Yorker one.

  23. catarina says:

    One part of Romney’s plan that isn’t getting a lot of attention is his proposed switch to a ‘territorial tax system” for corporations.

    This is long overdue and is also one of the Simpson-Bowles recommendations.

    This stuff doesn’t good for 30 second ads, but it’s hugely important.

    A territorial system must be designed to encourage the creation of jobs in the United States, not to outsource them. A Romney administration will begin work on the transition to a territorial system on day one.
    As much as $1 trillion, that could be invested in the United States, is at stake. It is past time to eliminate tax laws that place American firms at a competitive disadvantage, decrease revenue, and
    diminish corporate investment in America.

    More here-see pages 4-6:

    Click to access TaxPolicy.pdf

    PS I’m a ‘bean counter.”

  24. Sebastian says:

    I can’t help but agree. the more you dig into Obama’s history, the more blatant and transparent Obama intentions become.

    He wants nothing more then to have his daddy to look him in the eye and say “Well done son”

    I would feel sorry for him… but DON”T! Nor can can I shake myself from wanting to smack him upside the head and scream Your situation is NOT UNIQUE! Get over your self!

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