The 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments are just as important as the 1st and 2nd

Some Tweets:

During the past few years we have seen several mass murders involving guns. Some people, including our current president, have used these horrific incidents to try to curtail our Second Amendment rights. In each case I have strongly supported our right to keep and bear arms.

This is not because I did not care about the innocent lives that were lost. It was because I believe our freedom is worth the cost. Freedom isn’t free.

But our Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights are just as important as the First and Second. We have to tolerate scumbags like Larry Flynt and protesters burning the American flag. That’s because freedom of speech is nearly sacred. As it should be.

Putting up with speech we find abhorrent is the price we pay for our own freedom of speech. Putting up with the death of innocents is the price we pay for the right to enforce and defend our freedoms.

The Fourth Amendment has to do with our right to privacy and the freedom from unreasonable searches. The Fifth Amendment concerns due process and the right against self-incrimination. The Sixth Amendment protects our right to legal counsel.

Those rights would be meaningless if they could be violated with impunity. After years of looking the other way the Supreme Court ruled that the only practical way to enforce those rights was to exclude evidence obtained in violation thereof.

That means that the price of our freedom includes letting some bad guys escape justice. But we don’t do that because we feel sorry for the bad guys. We sometimes have to let criminals go free to protect our own freedom. That’s a high price to pay.

But freedom isn’t free.




About Myiq2xu - BA, JD, FJB

I was born and raised in a different country - America. I don't know what this place is.
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75 Responses to The 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments are just as important as the 1st and 2nd

  1. myiq2xu says:

    Just so we’re clear:

    I feel no sympathy for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev or his dead brother. But his rights are our rights.

    Those rights I care about.

    • votermom says:

      Bomber did enough damage already; we must not let him be used by the authoritarians as an excuse for another attack on the Constitution.

  2. 49erDweet says:

    Yeh, I agree. That’s one reason to me the case isn’t over. Lot’s of evidence gathering and analysis left to do, and loose threads to run to ground. I fear the slack off instinct. That’s how successful prosecutions are sabotaged and flushed away. The dirtbag deserves the full measure of his complete set of rights because he had been accepted into citizenship. OTH, the commonwealth and nation (the rest of us) are fully entitled to ours, too. And those are the ones backtrack seems to blithely fritter away. Arghhh!

    • myiq2xu says:

      Standards of justice should not vary because of who you are or the crimes you are accused of. Citizen or foreigner, murderer or jaywalker, everyone is equal before the law.

      • Somebody says:

        ITA if we advocate limiting his rights then we are advocating limiting our rights.

        He is a US citizen and because he is, he is entitled to the same rights we all have. I understand they are going with the public safety exemption and I think in so far as trying to find out the location of additonal bombs and explosives the government is well within their rights on that score.

        Beyond that probably not or they’re getting into muddier waters. However, I don’t think they really care about using his statements in court. I think they have so much evidence already of his many crimes that they know he will be found guilty.

  3. 49erDweet says:

    Listened to a half hour or so of BPD scanner traffic just now. Besides multitudes of citizens still being out and about, so are the crooks. Lots of robberies and thefts going on.
    One poor cop repeatedly said, “Send more cars”, (pause) “Send more cars”, (pause) “More cars”, (pause) “We need more cars”. Dispatch finally said, “You’re on the wrong channel”. (long pause) Deep, deep voice then said, “For chrisakes, send him more cars”!

  4. Jadzia says:

    HFS. It sounds like both sides were right: there were elements of both domestic and international terrorism at work. Because it would be irresponsible not to speculate, my very early theory is that these guys were recruited into some terrorist cell and given this job because they were pale enough to fit in with the crowd at the marathon.

    I don’t envy you guys at all, I think things are about to get really ugly. And I’m terrified for my son who still lives there. After spending months depressed about the boredom and loneliness of living in BFN, today it’s not seeming so bad.

    Plus, our hostages in Cameroon (a family with 3 or 4 kids who chose the wrong place, at the wrong time, for a family picnic several months ago) were freed yesterday. I’ve been thinking about those poor people almost every day, although I wonder what Hollande agreed to in order to get them back.

  5. Lulu says:

    JarJar or whatever the hell his name is gets full constitutional rights as a naturalized US citizen. He does not get to call himself a boy or smart because he went to some asshole jack-off punk schools in Boston where everyone is called smart, or that his psycho hate-filled, intolerant, ignorant brother was an “undue” influence on him. He blew people up including young children while smirking, maimed and terrorized, killed law enforcement officers trying to protect the public, and hid like the punk coward he is to save his own worthless life. He did it for Jihad, brotherhood and because it was exciting. He and his clan got into this country out of pity. He was given an education out of pity. The Vile Progs are trying to justify their pity party but the rest of us have run out. We give people too much and they hate us for it. Let us fix that.

  6. lildoggy4u says:

    I fully expect Obama to take credit for the capture of this young jihadist today. Just wondering if Obama had a son if he…..?

  7. elliesmom says:

    If he survives his wounds, I want him tried and convicted in the Boston Federal Courthouse. He can have the best lawyers his father can pay for. All of his teachers at Cambridge Rindge and Latin can be character witnesses, but somehow I don’t think too many of them will step forward. Cambridge may be bleeding heart liberal central, but that’s only when it’s not personal. They are the very definition of “limousine liberals”. I don’t know anyone who either wasn’t there or didn’t have someone they cared about at the Marathon on Monday. The level of cooperation law enforcement got this past week should scare the bejeezus out of this young man and any other people involved.

    • Jadzia says:

      I wouldn’t expect him to be tried in Boston. When the Millennium Bomber (remember him?) Ahmed Rassam crossed over into Port Angeles, WA, the feds did all his pretrial hearings in Seattle federal court (and boy, was that a circus every time he came in — I worked there at the time and got used to having guns pointed at me while I fumbled around for my court ID) and actually tried him in LA, where he was convicted (and then was sentenced in Seattle — the whole thing was a real clusterfuck). Fun fact: France convicted him in absentia on the same day.

      • elliesmom says:

        They can try him in New York then. Boston would be fine with that. 😉

      • Constance says:

        Well that is because the east coast folks think Seattle is a back water and can’t handle a complex case in the manner the elitist east coast people consider appropriate. Boston is a center of impressive elitism in their minds so naturally the elitists who run our government will feel comfortable having this guy tried there.

        • elliesmom says:

          I’m not an elitist. I just think he should be tried where he can face his accusers. I didn’t realize “west coasters” had such an inferiority complex. I’ve lived in the mid-west, and they have a well-deserved high opinion themselves, too. If this had happened in Chicago, I think Chicagoans would want him tried there, too.

        • Constance says:

          I said the east coasters did not think we in Seattle would be able to hold a trial of terrorists that they would find appropriate not that we thought we couldn’t. And yes east coasters do think they are Gods people and that Ivy indoctrination is the only acceptable or respectable education.

        • HELENK says:

          as an ex-east coaster and a traveler around the country, can I say that Seattle was the only place I did not feel safe. Every where I went there were groups of teenagers approaching me for money. I watched a crowd cheer when a cop was hit by a car. I have worked at night in Philadelphia, New York, Hoboken, and Los Angeles and did not feel as uncomfortable as I did in Seattle

        • Constance says:

          Seattle does have a lot of street people, Our public schools are a disgrace, they have pretty much cut out vocational training and dumped too much into college prep when most kids don’t have a hope in hell of going to college. 30% of public school kids don’t graduate and even those who do only have a knowledge of esoteric crap which is not very sell-able in the job market. But we do have two state of the art professional men’s sports arenas and we will likely be forced to build another one for men’s basketball soon. But the west part of the state is run by liberal Democrats and I am confident they could run a terrorist trial as well as any east coast liberals.

  8. votermom says:

    Klown, volokh’s post on the miranda rights safety exception

    • DeniseVB says:

      From the FBI site, the Public Safety Exception and it’s history.

      Picking through the legalese, this seems to be a case it can be applied too ?

    • wmcb says:

      Yeah, I know that the “exception” can always be abused. But there was a legit public safety concern in this case, IMO. You couldn’t know if or where more bombs were planted, or if more terror acts were in process that the FBI needs to know about NOW. They had already found more unexploded devices.

      Exceptions to Miranda due to risk of imminent harm CAN be abused. But I don’t think that’s the case here: this seems to be exactly the type of public safety situation those exceptions were created for.

      • Lulu says:

        I hope they withhold pain meds can they can question him in this time frame. Wouldn’t want him confused and stuff.

        • myiq2xu says:

          A statement from a suspect who is in great pain could be ruled inadmissible. Withholding medical care could be considered cruel and unusual (8th) as well as coercive (5th).

      • myiq2xu says:

        Miranda is a very misunderstood law. Many people believe that if the cops don’t read the defendant his/her rights the instant they are arrested that the arrest is no good. That’s bullshit.

        Miranda applies to incriminating statements only. A statement taken in violation of Miranda can be excluded from evidence at trial. What is really silly is that every single day cops Mirandize suspects and then the suspects waive their rights and make incriminating statements. Smart cops don’t try to be tricky, they dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s.

        The smart criminals keep their mouths shut. You can invoke your rights at anytime, you don’t have to wait to be Mirandized. I always tell people that the ONLY thing they should say to the cops is “I don’t want to say anything and I want a lawyer”. That invokes the 5th AND 6th Amendments.

        • elliesmom says:

          This young man passed his citizenship test and is a sophomore in college. He should know his rights.

  9. votermom says:


    • Lulu says:

      No red flags there apparently. A very religious Muslim boxer charged with domestic abuse is no biggie. I’m sure he learned his lesson about hurting other people. /s/

  10. swanspirit says:

    NBC : we don’t know shit

  11. lyn5 says:

    Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is lucky he wasn’t drone kill.

  12. elliesmom says:

    My idiot cousin is still convinced the Boston Police conducted a “false flag” operation on Monday at the marathon, and the two men killed or captured were framed. He has a naked picture of the older brother on a slab in the morgue on his FB page with a caption saying the guy’s constitutional rights were violated because he was “executed without a trial”. He says I’m too gullible. I had my constitutional rights violated yesterday because I couldn’t go for a subway ride. He’s not a first cousin so our shared gene pool is small. But he’s getting a lot of support for his theories from his buddies. He’s coming at this from “the left”, but his arguments could just as easily fit into some ultra-right wing militia type thinking. Have we lost so much faith in our government and our law enforcement agencies that both extreme.ends of the political spectrum have met, and they trust nothing?

    • angienc (D) says:

      Seriously — you’re idiot cousin is a loon & proof that people can & will come up with conspiracy theories about *everything.*

      He does have a SMALL point about the ease at which people were willing to cede to martial law all over the Boston area yesterday, but I chalk it up to exigent circumstances (although it is pathetic that one 19 year old can hold an entire city in the grip of fear like that). We all just need to watch it that another POS law like the “Patriot Act” isn’t enacted in the aftermath with people clamoring to give up their freedom & Constitutional rights in exchange for a veneer of “safety.”

      • myiq2xu says:

        What killed Suspect #1 was getting run over by his younger brother and left to die.

        BTW – I have a copy of that picture in my gruesome photo collection. I will not be posting it here.

      • Constance says:

        More likely they will try to ban sales of pressure cookers.

      • elliesmom says:

        There was no martial law in Boston yesterday. People were told this young man was loose in the city tossing explosives out of a car, and for their own safety, they should stay wherever they were. There were people still out and about. This winter when we had a major snowstorm and the governor said anyone on the road would be arrested – that was martial law.

    • DeniseVB says:

      Well, the rights of the victims were violated too 😉 Here’s a great rant in the Boston Globe, a tale of two immigrants ….

  13. yttik22 says:

    People always want revenge and justice when we catch a bad guy. The problem is, there’s nothing you can do to him to make up for what he did. He doesn’t have enough legs to give, enough lives to give. We can’t kill him half a dozen times, we can’t do anything that equals what he did to more than 100 other people. It’s not fair, its not equal, there simply is no suffering on this earth that will equal the suffering he has caused.

    • elliesmom says:

      I’m OK with making sure he has no opportunity to do it again, and making sure he has as little influence as possible in convincing other people to follow in his footsteps. The people hurt and the families and friends of all of the victims, alive and dead, will find their solace in going on in spite of the destruction he wrought.

    • angienc (D) says:

      Life without parole in a Turkish prison might come close.

      Of course, we Americans are too CIVILIZED for that kind of shit, despite the constant cries about how “violent” we are by the vile progs.

  14. SHV says:

    “But our Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights are just as important as the First and Second. ”
    That’s where the “gun” debate should focus and there are no easy answers. ie should doctors be required to report “mental health issues” for the background check data base? or NYC has cut murder numbers from >2000 in the 1990s to <500, primarily by "targeted policing (profiling) and stop and frisk (????probable cause)…it works but how far to go with it??? etc., etc.

  15. votermom says:

  16. myiq2xu says:
  17. DeniseVB says:

    Another angle on Miranda, even if they throw out those statements (not sure he’s been concious to make them yet?), there’s still enough evidence for a conviction ?

    • myiq2xu says:

      At this point I would be very surprised if the prosecution’s case hinged on the admissibility of a confession.

      • 49erDweet (D) says:

        Jumping in late, as usual, Miranda came about to overcome police misconduct, which was pretty egregious. “Lying and denying” to suspects NOT APPREHENDED DURING COMMISSION was quite common, and unethical cops routinely practiced befriending, bullying and beating tactics to obtain “confessions” from persons simply asked to drop by the office to “clear something up”, closing cases, maybe, but failing to solve crimes. At the time the ruling was not “supposed” to cover situations where a doer was apprehended during the commission of, or while fleeing the scene of a crime, or resisting an arrest for same by unlawful means. Thus the original exceptions.

        The ruling was meant to punish society as a whole for the misdeeds of a certain class of cops. Does that sound familiar? “The whole family won’t get to go to Disneyland because little Sally won’t make her bed” meme? I always wanted the individual cops to suffer, but that really never happened. In many departments their falsely inflated clearance rates actually got them promoted over the honest cops. Yep, life’s not fair.

        The theory that a person in the process of violently taking the lives and/or property of others desperately needs to know his own civil rights so society doesn’t abuse him while trying to stop his violence and take away his freedom of movement, is so convoluted and twisted as to beggar belief. If he chooses to speak before obtaining learned counsel he should have that right. OTOH he should be “brought before a magistrate” forthwith when normal court house hours have been reached. IMO And I think cops that violate or circumvent others’ rights should be charged. But hold little hope of that occurring.

        • myiq2xu says:

          Ernesto Miranda kidnapped and raped a mentally retarded 17 year old girl. There were no witnesses or fingerprints and this was in the days before DNA testing. She failed to pick Miranda out of a line-up. After the line-up when Miranda asked “How did I do?” the cops told him “You failed.” Then they interrogated him until he confessed.

          SCOTUS said that custodial interrogations were coercive in nature and for a confession to be considered voluntary:

          The person in custody must, prior to interrogation, be clearly informed that he has the right to remain silent, and that anything he says will be used against him in court; he must be clearly informed that he has the right to consult with a lawyer and to have the lawyer with him during interrogation, and that, if he is indigent, a lawyer will be appointed to represent him.

          Without the confession there was insufficient evidence to convict Ernesto and he was released. A few years later he was stabbed and killed in a bar fight. When the police arrested the man who killed him, they read him his rights.

        • votermom says:

          Sounds like a guy who needed killing.

  18. myiq2xu says:
    • 49erDweet (D) says:

      This could be the next big story out of beantown. Or should I say “should be”?
      A “religious” institution that teaches the violent and deadly overthrow of a civil population and it’s government has every right to do so, IMO, except within the borders of that very government. Place needs to be leveled. But nobody has the guts to call it.

  19. HELENK says:

    the younger one was on campus everyday after the bombing. attended classes and dorm parties.
    can’t let killing and maiming interfere with your life

  20. DeniseVB says:

    Whoa ! From Beckistan via Nice Deb ….

    The hospitalized Saudi kid won’t go away. Nice Deb’s been covering that angle since he was a person of interest and his apt searched. Beck says he has congressional and law enforcement proof the kid shouldn’t have been cleared. Asks the admin to tell the truth or he will.

    • 49erDweet (D) says:

      Well, you can stop throwing peanuts between the bars of their cages. They will be a little hungrier, then.

  21. myiq2xu says:

    Hot Air:

    After more than 200 rounds were traded over several minutes, some officers were out of ammunition and charged the brothers’ position with their police car. The vehicle was disabled by gunfire from the Mercedes. Kitzenberg said he saw one of the shooters toss a metallic object — possibly a pressure-cooker bomb similar to the ones used in the marathon attack — in the direction of the police line. It rolled a few yards before detonating harmlessly.

    Tamerlan Tsarnaev, now out of his car, attempted to lob a makeshift bomb at police, but the device exploded in his hand. While Tamerlan Tsarnaev was firing a pistol with the other hand, police tackled and tried to subdue the 200-pound amateur boxer.

    Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, apparently intending to help his brother, tried to ram the officers with the Mercedes. Instead, the officers lunged out of the vehicle’s path and he ran over his brother and dragged him along the street before speeding off with police in pursuit. ….

    Tamerlan Tsarnaev was taken to a hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival. Hospital officials said he had been shot multiple times and suffered other wounds, apparently from an explosion.

    He was not only merely dead, he was really most sincerely dead.

    • votermom says:

      “Nothing left to do but go through his pockets for loose change.”
      – Miracle Max

    • 49erDweet (D) says:

      Thanks, myiq. That explains a lot of the confusion.

      Cops ran out of ammo and charged them with their car, huh? Lazy bums should have carried more rounds./sarc/

  22. lyn5 says:

    If you want to listen to Steve Martin’s uplifting banjo and Edie Brickell’s great voice and lyrics (Of course, I love “Siamese Cat.”):

  23. HELENK says:

    good article on what we do not do when looking for terrorists

  24. HELENK says:

    considering how the immigration bill is being fast tracked though congress just like obamacare maybe slowing down, reading the bill and giving it a lot of thought would not be a bad thing to do

  25. HELENK says:

    for a supposedly smart lady, she gets a lot of things wrong

  26. HELENK says:

    that terrible Mitt Romney is donating $1 million to the victims of the marathon attack

    msnbc will not like that

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