Getting Lost in the Weeds


I thought about writing a post on Donald Sterling, but that topic has been beat to death. Then I thought about doing a post on the rapist/murderer whose execution in Oklahoma didn’t quite go like it was supposed to. But he died, so it all worked out. The smoking gun email in Benghazigate is newsworthy, but all it really did was tell us what we already knew (official incompetence and cover-up.)

So I figured we go with this:

You gotta go read the article and the comments. I don’t agree with everything, but he makes a lot of good points.

Well? Go read it! Then come back when you’re done.
{{Elevator music}}

Okay, now that you’re back we can continue. I posted this in yesterday’s thread and got a comment from “Underwhelmed” that led to this exchange:

Underwhelmed says:
April 29, 2014 at 7:02 pm

But the big missing point is (and always is, in these kinds of conversations) is that historically women have been barred from participating in the fields of chemistry and invention and engineering and stuff like that. When men are the gatekeepers, when they get to decide who plays and who doesn’t, it is the height of fuckwittery for them to then turn around and say See? No women! They don’t like this stuff, they’re no good at it! If they were they’d be doing it! The same applies to the entertainment industry. When the studios are run by men (or even by women who are surrounded by/beholden to men) who choose who will/won’t get to write the movies, direct the movies, produce the movies (and tv) then it can’t come as a surprise that almost no women (or for that matter non-whites and political conservatives) get the green light. It becomes a totally closed system, which then uses itself to justify its lack of diversity.

Which isn’t to say modern feminism isn’t a blight. Because too often it is. And as totalitarian as any good gulag would want.

The Klown says:
April 29, 2014 at 7:58 pm

I think women should be able to do any job they want to do as long as they are qualified. I think the competition for jobs should be race and gender neutral, but based on genuine criteria. One standard for everyone, and may the best candidate win.

But I not gonna assume there is some kind of invidious discrimination if some jobs are overrepresented by one gender. And I’m not gonna pretend there are no differences between men and women. Everything doesn’t have to be 50/50.

The Klown says:
April 29, 2014 at 8:01 pm

If I’m hiring furniture movers, I want some people who can move heavy couches and refrigerators around. I don’t care whether they sit down to pee or not.

Underwhelmed says:
April 30, 2014 at 12:55 am

Exactly. Some stuff is geared for guys to do, some stuff is geared for women, and sometimes there’s a crossover where outliers from both sides can do the tasks easy peasy. And everyone who wants to and can, should. But a lot of the time, when certain characteristics aren’t at play and the job in question has nothing to do with sheer physicality, for eg, there is lopsided representation and — yes. There is a bias at play. And too often it’s when men get to do the choosing because then more often than not they choose other men, even when there are equally or better qualified women. Because girl cooties. And prejudice. And misogyny. It just is. You might not engage in it, but plenty of guys do. That’s the good fight. Not the crap that gets in the way of the good fight.

The Klown says:
April 30, 2014 at 1:24 am

That’s the good fight.

I agree that it’s the good fight. What is your battle plan?

I’m not trying to pick on Underwhelmed. I mostly agree with what she had to say. But . . .

One of the problems facing today’s feminists is the success of the so-called Second-Wave. The First-Wave were the Suffragettes. They fought for the right to vote.

My mom was part of that Second-Wave of feminism. She was a working single mom in the Mad Men era, when men called secretaries “honey” and patted their bottoms. Mom was a secretary, first for an insurance company and later for the City of Merced. She worked for the city for 35 years and saw a lot of changes take place. Badly needed changes.

Second-Wave feminists fought for everything from the right to use birth control (without their husband’s permission) to changes in the laws on property, contracts, credit, divorce, child custody, sexual assault, domestic violence, sexual harassment and abortion. Most importantly, they successfully fought for laws prohibiting discrimination on account of gender.

Just like the Civil Rights movement, Third-Wave Feminism has kinda got lost in the weeds:

Third-wave theory usually incorporates elements of queer theory; anti-racism and women-of-color consciousness; womanism; girl power; post-colonial theory; postmodernism; transnationalism; cyberfeminism; ecofeminism; individualist feminism; new feminist theory, transgender politics, and a rejection of the gender binary. Also considered part of the third wave is sex-positivity, a celebration of sexuality as a positive aspect of life, with broader definitions of what sex means and what oppression and empowerment may imply in the context of sex. For example, many third-wave feminists have reconsidered the opposition to pornography and sex work of the second wave, and challenge existing beliefs that participants in pornography and sex work are always being exploited.

Back in my mom’s day there was lots of outrageous shit going on. It was easy to point to it and say “This is wrong and needs to change.” Things aren’t so clear anymore.

You can’t discriminate against women for being women, but some job requirements will end up discriminating against them. Take my furniture moving example above. If I said that all applicants had to be able to pick up a 100 lb weight and carry it up a flight of stairs, that would be a legitimate job requirement, but it would also tend to eliminate more women applicants than men. Not only that but some of the women who could meet that requirement could decide that’s not a job they are interested in doing.

So we end up with very few female furniture movers. Is that gender discrimination? Of course not.

Now suppose I made a requirement that all applicants had to be able to pee standing up. Again, that is gonna tend to eliminate most of the women. But is the ability to pee standing up a legitimate job requirement? Not hardly. So if I tried to use it as an excuse to not hire women that would be discrimination, and it would be against the law.

Forty years ago there were lots of obvious cases being litigated, and lots of employment policies got changed. The obvious cases are mostly gone. So what we have now is a situation where it is harder and harder to prove discrimination. Maybe it was, and maybe it wasn’t.

Once all the dragons have been slain those wandering knights have nothing to do and start tilting at windmills.

Societal change takes time. This is true of the Civil Rights movement and LGBT rights movements as well. You fight for change for a long time and nothing happens, but then one day the dam breaks and there are a flood of changes. At that point you have to be patient and let everybody and everything catch up.

The “battle of the sexes” is a bunch of bullshit. Men and women need each other. Throughout history we have managed to work shit out well enough for the human race to continue. Our institutions reflect our culture and vice versa.

Our laws and customs evolved over thousands of years, and they are always a little behind the curve when it comes to change. The status of women has changed tremendously since the end of World War II, and we still haven’t worked out all the bugs. By the time we do, there will be new changes to deal with.

Right now women significantly outnumber men in our colleges and universities. Women have practically taken over some professions, and are making significant gains in others. But some professions remain heavily male-dominated. Is it discrimination or just a result of the differences between men and women?

Men and women ARE different. I got in an argument with some pinhead the other night on Twitter about this. She was arguing that the differences between boys and girls were all due to learned behaviors and the way they were treated. That’s a fallacy.

If you were to show “feminine” and “masculine” qualities on a graph you would have two side-by-side bell curves with some overlap between them. Some women would be closer to the masculine bell and some men would be closer to the feminine bell, but the majority of each group would be centered on their respective gender’s bells.

In closing let me point out that “equal” does not mean “identical.” It’s okay for men and women to be different. We both have equal value.


About Myiq2xu

I was born and raised in a different country - America. I don't know what this place is.
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113 Responses to Getting Lost in the Weeds

  1. The Klown says:

    If their our any typos I’ll fix ’em klater. I need som e slepp.

  2. mothy67 says:

    Found it interesting on my my many stays in the hospital that the male nurses seems to hold a disproportionate number of the supervisory positions. Traditionally that had been a female dominated field. I may be way off as i do not know the actual stats and don’t know if the better positions require more education(in PA they still have 2 year RN programs and Lpns). Also seemed to me that the CNAs provided a lot of the care as the nurses were inundated with paperwork..

    • elliesmom says:

      Most elementary school teachers are women. Most elementary school principals are men.

      • mothy67 says:

        Is it sexism or is it dependent upon other factors such as the level of education and training? A four year degree can qualify you to teach but it is a management position so could it be that more men pursue that. I don’t know I’d love to see the stats.

        • elliesmom says:

          About 30% of school principals are women, mostly in elementary school, and the number is rising. Every teacher is required to have a master’s degree within five years after initial certification since No Child Left Behind was passed. School Leadership is one of the concentrations a teacher can choose. Education is not a barrier. One of the barriers women do face is the normal path to principal is through initially being a vice principal. In most schools one of the roles the vice principal plays is the school disciplinarian. The bigger the kids, the harder it is for school committees doing the hiring to imagine a woman in that role, especially if she’s diminutive in stature.

      • 49erDweet says:

        Shoot me if I’m wrong, but could that be bc many young women entering the field have a financial need to begin earning $ asap in order to pay their own way, (escaping a previous environment, perhaps?) while more of the young men have been working pt in other fields and recognize the long-term career value of additional education now? I was merely considering my YD’s situation.

        • mothy67 says:

          Think there are many reasons why elementary schools tend to have male principals and sexism is one of them. Stereotyping here but I don’t know of many men who want to teach those grades but know a few women who do it because it is what they want to do. No one goes into education to get rich. Best person for the job should get the job.INMHO.

      • Somebody says:

        That’s interesting that it’s that way in your area Elliesmom. Here in my area most of the teachers and principals are women at the elementary level. Now at the middle school and high school level it’s a different story there are a lot more male teachers. Middle school principals around here are split between men and women, but I can only think of 1 female high school principal.

  3. The Klown says:
  4. The Klown says:

    How can an execution be considered “botched” if the inmate dies?

    • DeniseVB says:

      From what I read about what he did to his victim, he didn’t suffer enough. Like Old Sparky (Florida’s once malfunctioning electric chair, sorta like being gently sauteed to death), homicides dropped considerably for awhile…..:D

    • 49erDweet says:

      And isn’t the whole idea of “humane execution” sort of counterproductive?

      Silliness aside, the problem with executions is the executioners. They are being required to do an occasional official duty with which they might personally strongly disagree. People in charge of prisons (and thus executions) are in many respects excellent caregivers. It’s a conundrum.

  5. The Klown says:

    This is what I was talking about:

  6. elliesmom says:

    I’ve learned a lot about what makes women choose or not choose a career where they are surrounded by mostly men or mostly women. I’ve learned a woman who wants to compete in a mostly male environment doesn’t have to leave her personal femininity at the door, but she does need to be able to compete based her merits as they pertain to the job. I’ve learned there are men who don’t want women in their field, but perhaps more insidious are the women who get there and then slam the door in the face of the women behind them. I do believe there are strength requirements for some jobs that leave some people out, but there are no jobs that rely on brain power that should be skewed toward one gender or the other. Most women are actually good at math and science, and we have good spatial skills. Most women would rather become an engineer who designs dishwashers, though, than one who builds gun sights and bombs. Most girls are taught math and science in the early grades by women who became elementary school teachers without being required to take more than basic math and science courses. Now that math and science are fields more open to women, the women who become elementary school teachers are not usually great at either one. There is actually less encouragement in school for girls to like math than there used to be.

    No man can connect with his child before its born the way a woman can. It’s a privilege women take for granted. I think most men are jealous. There’s nothing gender specific about being able to cook, clean, and maintain a house. Everybody should be able to do it. Men have been conditioned that only work with monetary reward has value, and men think they are only required to do work that’s valued. Even mowing the lawn gets you the right to sit down and have a beer. Women who work hard cleaning and then open a box of chocolates as a reward are ridiculed.

    Deciding to break into a field where your gender is not the cultural norm takes courage and a real dedication to the job. It’s the same for a woman who wants to go into the sciences or the building trades as it is for the guy who wants to teach kindergarten. If all the doors are equally open to both sexes with requirements based on reality and not on made up societal constructs, and men and women make decidedly different choices, I’ll buy into it’s biology. But we sure as hell aren’t there yet.

  7. mothy67 says:

    Amazon has Kindle Fire HD for $89 todaay for its gold box deal. Refurbished but they give a great guarentee.

  8. mothy67 says:

    Good Lord.

    I am not privileged. Got a 29. I think it is an ass backwards way of looking at things.

    • elliesmom says:

      It’s OK. I only got a 22. According to the quiz, I’m underprivileged and I should send the quiz out to shame others for making me underprivileged. But there’s no way I’m underprivileged – now. The questions are mostly “have you ever”. And yes, I have experienced a lot of those things, but I worked hard and overcame them. Or I just don’t care about some of those things anymore.

      • mothy67 says:

        It is absurd. Everyone has to overcome something. There are inequities and righteous indignation has its place, but who wants to spend their life on the pity pot? Big Government has some interesting articles today.

      • 49erDweet says:

        Yep. 37. And I AM privileged, at least in my own mind. Biased test process.

        • mothy67 says:

          I filled it out again doing my best to be priviledged and it informed me that I was privileged and that there was nothing wrong with that but I should make an effort to blah blah blah. Inane test geared at reducing the straight white man. Did you have a car in high school? Maybe you had a job and paid for it. Do you have student loans? Maybe you avoided debt and went to a comminity college. Has a stranger ever asked to touch your hair? WTF? Yep I’m buying that it happens to African Americans daily. Assinine.

        • Somebody says:

          Haha we have something in common 49er! I have the same score, we have the same level of “privilege”.

    • swanspirit says:

      You live with 26 out of 100 points of privilege.

      You’re not privileged at all. You grew up with an intersectional, complicated identity, and life never let you forget it. You’ve had your fair share of struggles, and you’ve worked hard to overcome them. We do not live in an ideal world and you had to learn that the hard way. It is not your responsibility to educate those with more advantages than you, but if you decide you want to, go ahead and send them this quiz. Hopefully it will help.

      Well what do you know . And yes I have had strangers want to touch my hair . Yes , I went to Catholic School , but being half Jewish , I was usually on trial for something in every grade , except 4th , thank you Miss Bohager .

      • Somebody says:

        I’ve had strangers ask to touch my hair too.

        • Somebody says:

          My youngest daughter has had a TON of people want to touch her hair. Before she had cancer her hair was gorgeous, hair stylist would oogle over her hair. People would ask me all the time if I highlighted it…….highlight a little kid’s hair?

          I couldn’t imagine how my daughter would score on the quiz. During cancer treatment she was openly mocked by people multiple times and the stares…..OMG the stares. It’s amazing how ignorant people can be.

          • smangala says:

            I scored 56 out of 100 – I am an Indian woman here in the US and I overcame serious domestic abuse and my father’s alcoholism before I came here. It is a sad quiz where attempting suicide has the same score as having a car in highschool. What a load of crap.

    • helenk3 says:

      says I am really underprivledged. got 16 out of 100. gee i thought I was doing well in the world. can I cry poor pitiful me now?

    • angienc says:

      Bwahahahaha — I answered honestly (including teen years of self doubt) and I got this:

      You live with 48 out of 100 points of privilege.

      You’re not privileged at all. You grew up with an intersectional, complicated identity, and life never let you forget it. You’ve had your fair share of struggles, and you’ve worked hard to overcome them. We do not live in an ideal world and you had to learn that the hard way. It is not your responsibility to educate those with more advantages than you, but if you decide you want to, go ahead and send them this quiz.

      The first line — about “intersectional, complicated identy” is complete bullshit/completely inaccurate. The rest of it applies to EVERYBODY.
      This idiots think “feelings” determine whether you are “privileged” or not. You’re born in this country — even poor? You’re privileged. Don’t believe me, go visit India and see how the poor live there. Or gay? Go see how the gays are treated in the M.E.
      Pfft. What a load of crap.

  9. DeniseVB says:

    I really can’t add to the feminism discussion other than blow the dust of this old NYT article that includes my daughter (KT). I’ve learned a lot from her 😀

  10. SHV says:

    Very far into the weeds:

    “The Abused Wives of Westeros: A Song of Feminism in ‘Game of Thrones”

  11. helenk3 says:

    today you have women as train engineers and conductors and dispatchers and they are very good at their jobs. when I first went to work at the railroad there was a lot of male chauvinists around. They could be real pains to deal with. some women were willing to just take the bs. many women understood that you had to demand and earn respect. they did get it. You did not have to be a screaming harpy, you had to be willing to listen and learn and work at the job you owned. One good thing was there was a rate of pay for the job no matter who owned it.
    my biggest problem with the so-called feminists of today is they do not seem to have much respect for themselves. so why should anyone else respect them. they might as well be blow up dolls.

  12. helenk3 says:

    really high winds down here today. think of a hurricane without the rain

  13. The Klown says:
  14. helenk3 says:

    when is congress going to get the backbone to stand up to the backtrack bunch

  15. foxyladi14 says:

    Another great post Klown.
    Have you considered taking up writing? 😀

  16. DeniseVB says:

    • 49erDweet says:

      So the Senate, which is super-controlled by progs, can’t somehow overcome the feeble, evil GOP and pass their own benevolent programs? Yeah, that makes perfect sense……………

  17. swanspirit says:

    The porn thing and sex working is so far into the weeds , it defies credulity . Talk about women buying into their own exploitation ! And that helps the sex trafficking and child porn cause how? It just makes it so much worse by confusing the issues .

  18. Propertius says:

    My mom was part of that Second-Wave of feminism. She was a working single mom in the Mad Men era,

    Me, too. I’m a few years older than you. My mom was widowed 6 months before I was born. Worked full-time, took (excellent) care of me, and put herself through graduate school. I still don’t know how she did it.

    One incident from my adolescence (early 1970s) really sticks in my mind: my mom’s first attempt to buy a house. Fully-tenured associate professor with a flawless credit history, and she couldn’t get a mortgage without a male cosigner. Sometimes people forget how much progress we’ve really made.

  19. helenk3 says:

    there was a discussion on Cavuto today about young adults taking their mom and dad along for a job interview. Some saw nothing wrong with this. Would you hire this person? I would not. if they can not handle the job interview without their parents, how would they handle the job on their own?

    • 49erDweet says:

      Once had a young mother bring her infant with her during a job interview. Was going along with it when she suddenly shifted her baby, whipped out a boob and began nursing the little one as she responded to questions. It was difficult, but kept my eyes fixed on hers. The job was a front counter service representative position for a large public office.

      OTT her interview was good but her choice of apparel marked her down and she didn’t make the cut. Didn’t comment on the nursing-during-interview in her evaluation, but mentioned it to my (female) boss to CMA. Six weeks later hired her for a new telephone service position doing same job on the phone. She blossomed there and learned appropriate dress for that setting, eventually becoming a supervisor.

  20. Underwhelmed says:

    So first of all, not feeling picked on in the least. The whole reason to hang around here is because you don’t pull that crap. You’re a great guy, thought provoking and curious and sharp as a knife.

    Here’s the thing, from my pov. While I get what your’e saying re the furniture removal comparison, I think it’s kind of a false equivalency. Because to my knowledge there aren’t so many women desperate to get into the furniture moving biz. And while there certainly are women who want to get into the male-dominated and physically significant sandboxes of things like firefighting, the reservations there make total sense to me and frankly, women who refuse to acknowledge the stone cold truth re: upper body strength, muscle mass etc as they relate to job performance in those kinds of environments are just being ignorant. By all means prove you can handle the requirements. Don’t ask for favours, don’t ask for the standards to be lowered. Meet the standards and then have at it.

    No, I’m talking about the areas where physicality is irrelevant. I’m talking about the shameful, shameful history of women’s athletics, which meant there was no women’s Olympic marathon until frigging 1984. About the fact women were told, ad nauseum, that running would make their uteruses fall out and beards grow and their femininity to vanish. Women being controlled and gatekeeped by men. I’m talking about the shameful stats of women in the entertainment world, where they are marginalised and gatekeeped by men, denied participation more now than ten years ago, which is horrifying, how men who choose musicians for orchestras consistently ignored women who were better musicians up to the point where the audition process was conducted blind and then suddenly women were being selected on merit all over the place. I’m talking about the raging misogyny of the professional cheffery world. I’m talking about the raging misogyny of politics and a lot of churches and current popular culture. I’m talking the double standard where old, fat and totally plain authors like George RR Martin are feted for their talent and the equivalent female authors like Hilary Mantel are derided and bullied and smeared for their looks, because they’re only judged on their looks.

    Men and women are different, biologically and hormonally and emotionally. But those differences are used by a significant proportion of men to justify breathtaking levels of discrimination. And that’s the problem. I certainly see where it prompts a lot of women to deny basic realities, because given some men an inch and they’ll have you chained in the kitchen before you can blink.

    Things are changing. But they shouldn’t still be changing, they should be changed. And what breaks my heart is that the fight is going backwards for reasonable women, because the radical feminists, the 3rd wavers, do their best to make good men the enemy, and tar all reasonable women with their deranged hatreds – not only of men, but of the women who refuse to adhere to their orthodoxies. And there are some deranged feminists out there. They do so much damage. They put good men on the defensive, they make good men walk away when they could help, just like the deranged anti-racist crowd do to people like me, who will not tolerate being called a racist for no better reason than I’m white.

    But there are also many wonderful women and many wonderful men, so I don’t lose hope entirely.

  21. SHV says:

    “that running would make their uteruses fall out and beards grow and their femininity to vanish. ”
    That doesn’t sound good. My wife is running 35 miles of a 200 mile back country trail race this weekend.

    • Underwhelmed says:

      Great book to read is Kathrine Switzer’s Marathon Woman. It’s like a really bad acid flashback. Like Mad Men. Urrgghh. But also frustrating because things have changed, and yet they’ve not, and they’ve gone backwards.

    • Somebody says:

      Buy her an electric razor, LMAO!!
      ***Just in case anybody has any doubt I’m joking***
      Underwhelmed seriously people said that about women running? I’ve never heard that.

      • swanspirit says:

        I grew up being told riding a boys bike would make you lose your virginity . I chose horseback riding as my sport , because I loved horses But remember sidesaddles ?? Because a woman straddling a horse was too much for the male sensibility? 😉 Thank goodness they are long gone !

      • Underwhelmed says:

        Yupper. It’s a weird one, in that reading the book you see how far we’ve come … and yet looking around, you see how far there is to go but also how off the rails the whole feminist movement has run itself.

      • Underwhelmed says:

        And that’s the tip of the proverbial. Truly stomach churning crap.

    • helenk3 says:

      very good article.
      the dems do put party before everything even country

    • elliesmom says:

      She is a gem. The Left is doing its best to push some of us further and further away.

    • mothy67 says:

      Chris Cheng who won Top Shot makes a lot of heads explode too. He is a gay Asian-American from San Fran who is now a commentator for the NRA.

    • DeniseVB says:

      Dana’s right, we’re right, LBGT is not on the side of ALL gays, I learned that from the Gay Patriot long ago. I posted a news story about DeMaio downstairs in another thread and was livid that the LBGT is actually a “hate” group. You just can’t be successful to be part of them, you must be a VICTIM. Sad. LBGT may have even ruined his chances to be San Diego Mayor last election.

      • mothy67 says:

        The self appointed LGBT leaders are the gay version of al sharpton. I remember in 2004 when a whole bunch of elitist gay attorney friends flooded Ohio with their agenda. Top tier schools. I was asked to join. Said it was more important to get Bush out right now than to alienate midwest voters. Ohio was a crucial state. Sure they were their usual condescending selves to the people’s doors they knocked on. Support equal rights for all but you have to choose your battles. I also don’t agree with making a fundamental change like dropping DADT when we are at war. You betcha Andrew Sullivan does not speak for me.

    • mothy67 says:

      Read a few more articles on it and it is being called the “anti-Sharia” law because it states that foreign court decisions in matters of divorce, alimony and custody will not be enforceable if they conflict with the public policy of the state. Claim Jewish groups also opposed the bill. Sorry come here legally but live by the laws of your new home.

      • The Klown says:

        People can still follow Sharia law if they choose to, but they can’t make a court enforce it.

        There are all kinds of agreements that are unenforceable in court.

  22. The Klown says:
  23. The Klown says:

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