Brain Dead Liberals


From some young guy named Max Ehrenfreund at WaPo:

Gwyneth Paltrow bought on food stamps what only rich people buy

Gwyneth Paltrow didn’t last long on food stamps. The actress announced last week she would attempt to feed herself for a week on just $29, a little less than the typical person in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program has to spend on food. Paltrow gave up after just four days.

People on food stamps can’t give in, of course. Any extra money that they spend on food is money they’re not spending on something else, whether that’s an old bill or a bus fare. From the beginning, Paltrow had the freedom to go back to the grocery store.

Yet the real reason that Paltrow’s experiment felt unrealistic and even a little bit insulting was that in coming up with a shopping list, she revealed just how out of touch she is with life in poverty.

This dude has already gone astray and he doesn’t even know it. He’s right about Paltrow being ignorant and out of touch with life in poverty, but he’s in the same boat. Being poor sucks for most people, but some people don’t seem to mind it. Or at least they prefer being poor to doing the things it takes to stop being poor.

Additionally, the first word in SNAP is “Supplemental”. The $29 is not supposed to be your entire food budget for the week.

But wait! There’s more!

For all of these reasons, trying to improve the diets of poor American families by giving them easier access to produce might prove difficult. More generous public benefits or work that pays better with more reliable hours would likely allow the poor to make somewhat healthier decisions. They might not eat more fresh produce, but they might buy leaner cuts of meat or healthier brands of prepared food.

For kids, another approach is ask school cafeteria chefs to come up with healthier recipes. That’s been the effect of First Lady’s Michelle Obama’s initiative to improve nutrition in schools. It’s been a success by some measures, even though kids complain about it, as Wonkblog has previously reported.

In Liberaland, the solution to every problem is “more government.”

Challenge: Show me one place in this country where the Blue Model of government has been successful in reducing/eliminating poverty, illiteracy, drug use and/or welfare dependency.

Detroit looks like a war zone. Chicago is a war zone. Some places have gentrified and pushed their poor people out to surrounding areas, but liberals hate gentrifcation. Actually, liberals hate just about everything that has ever been successful at moving people from poverty to prosperity.

Fucking idiots.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. – Albert Einstein


About Deplorable Myiq2xu™

I'm a basket case.
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74 Responses to Brain Dead Liberals

  1. Myiq2xu says:

    Why do liberals freak out if you suggest drug testing for welfare recipients? If they aren’t using drugs, what’s the problem?

    • DeniseVB says:

      Ah, one of my bff’s, a social worker, when I brought this same topic up, she went batsh*t crazy on me. She sez: It’s the additional workload STUPID. Yes, that’s from our caring about the suffering and poverty majors. Obviously, they still don’t want to work….harder than our government requires them too. So they vote Dem and protest more paperwork.

      I think Walker just passed the drug testing requirement in WI, for the able bodied adults on assistance, and remember it resulted in long lines at employment offices ?

      Many corporations require drug testing just to work in their mailrooms, why should this be a problem for the taxpayer funded programs?

      • 1539days says:

        I don’t generally believe in the effective of drug testing, but I don’t oppose it. In a high-stakes job like bus driver, I say go for it. I think one state did drug testing for welfare recipients and got about a 3% positive rate. That probably means the tests don’t work on the schedule they give them.

        • Constance says:

          Check out the Whizzinator web site for help in beating a drug test. I learned about it from my son years ago.

        • DeniseVB says:

          I think the ” cig smoker testing” is even stupider. I can understand smoke free hospital campuses and other public spaces, but to require, REQUIRE, employees to pass a nicotine test, really ? What next, a caffeine test? Just shoot me now😉

          • elliesmom says:

            I don’t think employers would care all that much if they weren’t being pounded over the head that smokers increase their health care costs. I expect in the near future they’ll be monitoring their employee’s BMIs, requiring gym memberships, and limiting what food can be brought into the workplace. Because of respiratory issues, my doctor provides me with immunizations against flu and pneumonia very early in the game. The school I taught in provided flu shots free of charge so I was told “You have no excuse to refuse.” Except the one where I had already had a flu shot weeks earlier. Employers are getting involved in their employees health care because they provide our health insurance – although in my case that wasn’t true. Didn’t keep their nose out of my business, though.

    • 49erDweet says:

      Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?

  2. Myiq2xu says:

    There was a push back in the Clinton years to require welfare parents to go make their kids go to school. So now we have kids who don’t want to be in school and schools that don’t want them there because they are illiterate troublemakers.

    The community colleges are filled with welfare parents who never/barely finished high school and who are only going to college because they have to. The custodial parents (moms) get their tuition, books, transportation and child care paid for, while the noncustodial parents (dads) get no help with school and are hounded for child support even though they are at the same education/experience level as the moms.

    We are paying people to get training they don’t want for jobs that don’t exist. Meanwhile, Obama thinks he can fix everything by waving his magic POTUS pen and raising the minimum wage.

    • DeniseVB says:

      When you have time, read Ben Carson’s book “One Nation”. It should be required reading for every high school student in our country. He should have been our historic First Black President😉

    • 49erDweet says:

      “Raising the minimum wage for nonexistent jobs is courageous and establishes leadership,” said the spider to the fly.

  3. Myiq2xu says:

    Liberal economic theories are based on a profound misunderstanding of where money and jobs come from. The government DOES NOT make money. They merely print it.

    • 49erDweet says:

      My Obacktrack voting SIL just asked today on FB why Social Security, which is paid into, can keep going broke but Welfare, which earns nothing, never runs dry? Eyes opening?

      • DeniseVB says:

        I have a few of those on my FB. Sadly, mostly relatives. My one special snowflake neice decided it’s about time we have a woman president, so Hillary it was for her. I watched her comment box explode with really nasty statements I can’t even repeat on TCH. Her circle of friends are Coast Guard spouses. So I jumped in with, “Yes, I would love to see a qualified woman run for President, so far none are”. Yes, I’m the Queen of thread killers 😀

  4. mothy67 says:

    Brat’s school is pushing hard on the breakfest program. Kids are allowed in early to the gym or cafeteria only if they are having breakfast. I think hers is 2/day. Pup is a freak child that cannot wait to go to school. Most walk thier kids to school and the 45 minutes early helps working people. You cannot get in unless you buy breakfast. Forcing parents to subsidize lunch program.
    Clever but soooooooooo wrong.

  5. foxyladi14 says:

    I am so glad, My kids are all out of school. 😀

  6. Myiq2xu says:

    The Big Idea: California Is So Over
    California’s drought and how it’s handled show just what kind of place the Golden State is becoming: feudal, super-affluent and with an impoverished interior.

    California has met the future, and it really doesn’t work. As the mounting panic surrounding the drought suggests, the Golden State, once renowned for meeting human and geographic challenges, is losing its ability to cope with crises. As a result, the great American land of opportunity is devolving into something that resembles feudalism, a society dominated by rich and poor, with little opportunity for upward mobility for the state’s middle- and working classes.

    The water situation reflects this breakdown in the starkest way. Everyone who follows California knew it was inevitable we would suffer a long-term drought. Most of the state—including the Bay Area as well as greater Los Angeles—is semi-arid, and could barely support more than a tiny fraction of its current population. California’s response to aridity has always been primarily an engineering one that followed the old Roman model of siphoning water from the high country to service cities and farms.

    But since the 1970s, California’s water system has become the prisoner of politics and posturing. The great aqueducts connecting the population centers with the great Sierra snowpack are all products of an earlier era—the Los Angeles aqueduct (1913), Hetch-Hetchy (1923), the Central Valley Project (1937), and the California Aqueduct (1974). The primary opposition to expansion has been the green left, which rejects water storage projects as irrelevant.

    Yet at the same time greens and their allies in academia and the mainstream press are those most likely to see the current drought as part of a climate change-induced reduction in snowpack. That many scientists disagree with this assessment is almost beside the point. Whether climate change will make things better or worse is certainly an important concern, but California was going to have problems meeting its water needs under any circumstances.

    • Myiq2xu says:

      There is a bunch more and it’s MUST READ stuff.

      • DeniseVB says:

        I lived in California during Moonbeam’s first gov term. How the People’s Republic of California elected him again really harshes my mellow yellow, I have no sympathy for your(generic population) problems. I was also a delegate to CA’s Dem state convention in the late Carter 70’s, with Jerry, Jane Fonda and her then husband Tom Hayden. Once they found out I was representing Coronado, they laughed, Coronado has no problems, why are you here ? Sadly it took me 3 more decades to catch on to California, er, Mexifornia, and Democratic politics.

        On the upside, saw an article today about the Great Lakes region will go to war before they’ll be required to import water to Cali. #WAR Love it.

        Happy First Day of the Revolutionary War anniversary😀

        • 1539days says:

          I didn’t know it was the anniversary of the Revolutionary War. By coincidence I’ve been binge watching Season 1 of Turn: Washington’s Spies today.

          • elliesmom says:

            Tomorrow morning the Minutemen from “every Middlesex village and town” will be marching to the Old North Bridge. “Captain Parker” will fire the “shot heard round the world” and take one to the chest. The Minutemen will chase the Redcoats all the way to the Lexington Green where the first major battle of the war will be fought. Then they’ll continue to chase the Redcoats all the way to Arlington, a suburb just west of Boston. The march from Concord to Arlington is 17 miles, but many of the Minuteman will have walked as much as 10 miles to get to the bridge. “Paul Revere” will be arrested later this evening. “William Prescott” and “Samuel Dawes” will arrive in Concord later tonight. All three are shouting, “The Redcoats are coming!” Because around here we know everyone, including the Minutemen, were all British. While all of this is happening, from the south thousands of people will also be trying to get to Boston, but they’ll be wearing ergonomically designed shoes and won’t be carrying heavy weapons and ammunition. The juxtaposition of the two events makes this a big day.

            Because of my son’s participation in the marathon, the Patriots’ Day stuff has taken a back seat in our family the last few years, but this year my grandson’s Cub Scout troop is taking the train from their town into Concord to see the battle at the bridge. “Pops” used to be an ammunition carrier for the Minutemen, and they sponsored my Girl Scout troop. The girls used to dress in full Colonial garb and follow along so we are very familiar with the route. It’s a source of pride to have the Minutemen trample your lawn. Caleb was very upset to find out the path his hike from the Concord train station to the bridge will put him on the side of the Redcoats.. But he’s still excited about going. The current Minutemen go to great lengths to keep it all as accurate as they can. There’s no better way for kids to learn history than to live it. I did let him know the people who get “shot” tomorrow won’t be really dead. Because no gets up and walks away. The “dead” get carried off and placed in wagons. That really freaked my son out when he was little.

          • DeniseVB says:

            I believe it’s the First Shot Fired that started the Revolution’s anniversary. Concord and Lexington or somewhere…..

        • Ann says:

          I’m pretty sure somewhere in the Great Lakes Pact is wording that if other states want the water from the Great Lakes, they can buy it in bottles, or not at all:

          People also forget that Canada also has a say in what happens to the water from the Great Lakes. I remember talk of a Great Lakes State/Great Lakes Province agreement too, but I am not certain it was ever ratified.

          As someone that owns land on Lake Ontario I would suggest that if you want access to all the water you can drink, bathe in, wash clothing, cars, dishes, etc with, water your lawn with, irrigate your crops with and more, move to a Great Lakes state. Sure winter isn’t fun (unless you like winter sports that is), but that is why we snowbird. 😛

        • 49erDweet says:

          IMO any state deciding to import wawa to CA is kray-kray. Canada, OTOH, because they have such a surplus,could end up owning Mexifornia if they played their cards right.

        • leslie says:

          My obot friend is saying the same thing…. She’ll fight HARD before she sends “our water” to Calif or anywhere else. But she is in favor of a $15.00 minimum wage for everyone. She doesn’t know where the $$ will come from and doesn’t much care. And, there is no such thing as an illegal alien.

      • DandyTIger says:

        Nicely done. And I agree.

      • 49erDweet says:

        The insanity of initially investing in 100 plus miles of HSR in a desert between a county landfill and a fading oil-boom village facing extinction by drought is mind boggling.

  7. swanspirit says:

    Have a carbon footprint in the face.

  8. Dora says:

    My mother-in-law suffered from Alzheimer’s during her final years. When searching for a nursing home, nobody even thought about this!

    Alzheimer’s trial stirs talk of senior sexuality

    • elliesmom says:

      A close friend of mine could no longer care for her mom at home so they agreed on a nursing home together. Mom wanted a private room, but there were none available when she moved in. She was told it would only be a month or so before she’d be moved into one. Six months later she was still living with the roommate from hell. She invited the nice old guy down the hall into her room for a little nookie. The roommate was horrified. Mom was offered a private room within a couple of days. When my friend asked her mom what was she thinking? Mom said, “You told me the squeaky wheel gets greased so I did some squeaking. And moaning.”

  9. Dora says:

    They all want to save the world but they won’t even pick up their own trash!

    Global Citizen Earth Day Concert On The National Mall…What A Mess!

    • DeniseVB says:

      I saw that, but have to be fair, and we know WZ leans way righty-right. I went to a major event at the National Mall (I think it was a Glenn Beck’s and Tea PartyPalooza?). We had a hotel near the Lincoln Memorial, so I left about 6am to go stake out a good spot, hours before the event started. I walked up the Mall and every trashcan was overfilled already, like they haven’t been emptied for days! I thought to myself, that’s not good, the optics will make us look like piggies too😦 What to my surprise the Beck/Tea Party organizing peeps, brought their own trash bags, cleaned up and set them next to the day old Federal Mall Barrels.

      I learned that day that conservatives celebrate Earth Day Every Day😉

      • 1539days says:

        I remember hearing about that. It’s a perfect example of the media narrative. They are just waiting for a loose piece of paper at a conservative event, but a landfill’s worth of garbage at a liberal event turns invisible.

  10. 1539days says:

    One problem with Paltrow specifically is that she’s the daughter of a famous actress and a successful producer. She’s never had anything approaching an average American life. Even buying groceries is probably slumming it.

    I understand the argument that being poor isn’t that bad. I guess it depends on the definition. What’s worse is the attitude that having money is a bad thing. Being out of touch with poor people is bad, but being out of touch with rich people is just fine.

    • Myiq2xu says:

      It was 20 years ago that Bill Clinton put a 5-year limit on welfare benefits. Seen anyone starving in the streets?

      If you subsidize something you will get more of it. We subsidize poverty.

      • 1539days says:

        I thought Obama brought back welfare in exchange for Stimulus money.

      • DandyTIger says:

        And the other side of that is whatever you tax you will get more of it (because city/county boards always want more tax income). So if your tax revenue is from retail business sales, you’ll get more strip malls. If it’s from property taxes, you’ll have more suburban development. You decide.

  11. Myiq2xu says:

    Via Hot Air:

    “. . . Barack Obama couldn’t run without talking about race . . .”

    That is basically untrue. One of the few times that Obama spoke openly about race was his so-called “Race Speech” in April of 2008 when the Rev. Wright controversy was peaking and threatening to derail Obama’s campaign. It was supposedly a great speech comparable to MLK’s “I Have A Dream” speech, but nobody really remembers what he said other than calling his grandma a racist.

    But Obama did use race as part of a deliberate, pre-planned strategy. He used it as a sword to attack his opponents and a shield to protect himself from criticism, mockery and the normal vetting process. Rarely did he say anything himself, but he instead relied on surrogates in and out of the media to wield the race card for him.

    If was very effective, but it has left our country more racially polarized than at any time since the 60’s.

    myiq2xu on April 19, 2015 at 4:19 PM

    • leslie says:

      He also used this thought:
      “You haven’t seen anyone who looks like me running for this office before”
      and others just like that while running. The same way he referred to HRC as “periodically” feeling emotional.
      He is just a passive-aggressive narcissistic personality disordered jerk.

      • swanspirit says:

        He is just a passive-aggressive narcissistic personality disordered jerk.

        With a subconscious hatred for the country he he swore to protect , a crippling inability to lead, and a deeply vicious vindictive streak .

    • swanspirit says:

      It was the axis of Axeholes plan to get him elected. It was obvious to anyone who wasn’t looking through rose colored glasses. Brings to mind that interview Michelle had with Larry King, when she was so certain about the black vote, and the comment she made about Hillary’s “tone”.

  12. Myiq2xu says:

    This is definitely on topic:

    Will I support her? Yes. And here is the reason: if I were a hiring manager and I got a dozen CV’s from people like Clinton, Christie, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, even Elizabeth Warren, Hillary Clinton would be far and away the leading finalist for the job. She’s got the most experience, in the most areas, she has a network of associates she can call on for assistance to push her agenda, she’s got a mentor and she’s passionate about policy. No other candidate in the field is going to come close. And what all those attributes give her is a measure of independence that the other candidates will not have. Think about that for awhile and it will make sense. It also means there will be a lot of people, in both parties, who will not like for her to get the nomination because she won’t be so easy to control.

    Just because she’s the best the country has doesn’t mean it’s going to be a cakewalk.

    Ok, there’s one other thing I want to talk about. It’s about the PUMAs. I see no reason to run away from the fact that we were PUMAs in 2008. That just stood for Party Unity My Ass and it was our way of protesting how the DNC took the money from Obama’s donors, rewrote the primary campaign rules, disenfranchised 18000000 of us and then told us to get behind the ruthlessly ambitious, inexperienced shmoozer who became the party’s nominee or risk being called an ignorant, uneducated, old, bitter racist. Oh, HELL no. I was not going along with that program and I’m shocked that any loyal Democrat would give up their vote just to protect themselves from vicious group peer pressure. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now.

    But the PUMA groups went their separate ways after the election. If I were being honest, I would say we started going our separate ways in October of 2008 when I sensed that some PUMA groups were so angry that they were willing to go beyond a protest vote. In the aftermath of the election, the rift between us and the other PUMAs became more pronounced. We evolved but stuck pretty closely to our credo. They went the Tea Party route. It’s safe to say that we haven’t had any contact with other PUMAs since the early part of 2009. We aren’t BFFs, we don’t Facebook, we don’t belong to some super special sauce email group. If there is a widespread belief out there that that’s what’s going on with us and the PUMAs, let me dispel it now.

    Nevertheless, that’s who we were and there’s no point in hiding it. It’s possible that the PUMAs on this blog had a different concept of what that term meant than other PUMA groups. It’s safe to say that some operatives on the right saw a certain segment of PUMAs as potential converts. That didn’t include US. As far as we were concerned, the concept had lost its usefulness and it was time to move beyond that. I only regret that I didn’t spend more time organizing some kind of umbrella group that would have been a more effective promoter of behaviors we would have liked to have seen in our elected officials. We should have had something to counteract the Tea Party. Instead, we left a vacuum. And that’s not good.

    • swanspirit says:

      That is one conflicted woman right there. Her mind is a blender, and all that comes out is pureed

    • DeniseVB says:

      Cough, cough, I met more “former PUMAs” at Tea Party rallies than Republicans. And none of us waited for the “PUMA” alternative to the Tea Party movement, because that was it. :facepalm:

    • elliesmom says:

      Last I checked Hillary Clinton is still a Democrat. The people who stole her delegates and gave them to Barack Obama are still in leadership positions in the Democratic Party. If one was a PUMA because of what the Democratic Party did in 2008, then one should still be a PUMA, and voting for Hillary Clinton would be groveling back into the fold. To support the Democratic nominee this time as long as it’s Hillary says one wasn’t ever really a PUMA. One was throwing a hissy fit because one’s favorite candidate didn’t get the nomination. I wasn’t a Democrat in 2008. I was a Hillary supporter. When she didn’t get the nomination, I was free to choose from those people who did. No protest vote involved. Should I now choose to support Hillary Clinton in 2016, that would be ideologically consistent. But if one left the Democratic Party because it’s corrupt, then Hillary Clinton is just the next face of that corruption.

      • Myiq2xu says:

        In January 2008 I was a die-hard, yellow-dog, liberal Democrat. What took place that year and in the years since has opened my eyes.

        But my values and principles haven’t changed.

        • leslie says:


        • elliesmom says:

          That’s my point exactly. If PUMA was about principles, then those principles still apply. When the dust settles and we know who the candidates are and what their campaign positions are going to be, then someone who was a PUMA in 2008 might decide Hillary Clinton is the best candidate. But we don’t even know what her personal policy positions are going to be yet. We just know she’s going to be running as a Democrat. Her personal political history is filled with contradictions. It’s anyone’s guess where she will be on some of the major issues at this point. For example, does she still believe abortion should be “safe, legal, and rare”, or does she believe what Dippy Debbie believes? It’s OK to abort a baby, no questions asked, moments before it’s born? Can we count on her taking the same positions as she did in 2008, or has she “evolved”?

          • lyn says:

            I’ll choose who would be best for the country, and Hillary isn’t the one. She has too much Obama baggage.

    • Janet Erwin says:

      Hear hear. I remember those sorry days, and I haven’t voted since. WTF is the point? It’s all rigged in favor of what my auntie used to call the “GotRocks.”

      Fuck ’em. I just don’t give a shit anymore.

    • 1539days says:

      PUMA shouldn’t be about anti-Democrat. It’s about party not dictating voting. That means if Hillary is the better candidate, so be it. It also means that the Democratic Party is not allowed to anoint someone like Barack Obama and have everyone fall in line. PUMA isn’t a party, it’s a movement.

      • elliesmom says:

        I think what kept PUMA from becoming a force to be reckoned with and what made it quickly fall apart is it meant too many different things to too many people that were incompatible with each other. To really give up an allegiance to a political party meant you had to be willing to consider candidates from other parties. Some PUMAs did that. Some did it for one election, but couldn’t handle being in exile. Some chose to make a protest vote, but didn’t really leave the party. And some couldn’t bring themselves to even do that. The Tea Party drew people from lots of places, but their intention has always been to work within the constraints of the Republican Party to make the changes they want. Smaller government, fewer taxes, more adherence to the Constitution. While the media puts a lot of conservative social issues at the feet of the Tea Party, it isn’t and has never been part of their agenda. In contrast, PUMA never had a coherent message other than anger over the election practices of the Democrats. They never had an agenda to work together to get the changes they wanted because they didn’t know what they wanted except to express their anger.

        • Myiq2xu says:

          PUMA died when Hillary gave up and endorsed Obama. We just didn’t know it yet.

          • Lulu says:

            The Democrats are anti-democratic. When members of a society are not allowed to pick their own leader it isn’t a political party. They spend more time rigging the rules, threatening and throwing people out, lying, planning retribution for not towing the line, seeking vengeance and petty pay back. That is not a political party. That is a cult.

            The Democratic Party is in very deep trouble. They smeared Hillary so thoroughly in 2008 that she is ruined. She laid down for it. She participated in it by not fighting back OR pulling a strategic withdrawal to the Senate to fight the good fight another day. She JOINED them at State. To be honest all the Dem hacks did also. And they got their butts beat in 2010 and 2014 and got sent home for being useless cult hacks and spineless cowards.

            Now they got nothing for 2016. Everybody in the party has worked for the useless, unpopular, nasty little president and they are in it up to their necks. Why aren’t Dems jumping in to run like Repubs. Because they are going to loose. No Dem can win after Obama. Not for a long time. The Clintons are too old to remake the party, moderates, non-crooks and sane people have been purged and they got nothing for 2016.

  13. DandyTIger says:

    To me PUMA was part of an awakening to party corruption. Of course I knew politicians and parties were corrupt, but it just didn’t sink in to the level it was until then. Yeah, naive. But saying no to party unity for me wasn’t just a one time thing or a protest, it was: I’m not a member of a political party any more. I’m free of the cult shackles Free to not be pigeonholed. Free to think freely. Free to pick and choose from any pool of candidates, from any parties or non parties, and free to refine, re-think, and focus on my principles. Part of being free of the cult shackles as also meant thinking outside of the allowed boundaries of the blue cult I was in. Free to think, hey, maybe the blue model isn’t quite right. Maybe the acts of contrition, beating our backs, feeling guilty, always bearing the burden of original sin (being American, being in a successful culture, etc.) isn’t quite right. Maybe the war on poverty wasn’t the right approach. Etc.

  14. Dora says:

    Oh no. Not him again!

    Jon Corzine Considers Launching Hedge Fund

    Plan would mark return to finance for embattled former MF Global CEO

  15. Lulu says:

    Shame-storming. “This sort of tactic may buy silence, though it is likely to be the most effective on people who already agree with you and simply said something infelicitous. What it cannot buy is community, beyond the bonds that build between people who are joined in collective hate.”

    Collective hate is starting to backfire. Not only is it being to enforce social norms that are ridiculous, and to shut up critics or even questioners, it is a tactic of terror. It is authoritarian in the best tradition of oppressive dictatorships and strongmen. It was one of the first offensive things the Dems and Bronco did in 2007 and 2008 that turned me against them. The Obama era has ended the sense of US community. We are NOT all in this together.

  16. DeniseVB says:

    MOTUS has a poll up, and yes, these are definitely former PUMAs😉

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