Trump Goes There

And by “there” I mean Iraq:

Trump vs. Jeb: The battle over Bush 43

Saturday night’s debate between the men who would like to be the next Republican president was sidetracked by a testy exchange over the last one. Donald Trump and Jeb Bush sparred over George W. Bush’s legacy in a battle that could have a real impact on the South Carolina primary.

“The war in Iraq was a big, fat mistake,” Trump said. “There were no weapons of mass destruction.” The billionaire then said that the WMD intelligence wasn’t just mistaken. “I want to tell you: they lied.”

“I am sick and tired of him going after my family,” Jeb Bush shot back. “When Donald Trump was building a reality TV show, my brother was building the security apparatus that kept us safe.” But Trump replied that George W. Bush didn’t keep the country safe from the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

In 2004 the invasion of Iraq was still popular, especially among Republicans. Since then it has been Banquo’s Ghost at GOP get togethers. The Democrats, on the other hand, love to talk about it.

Jeb’s whole candidacy is haunted by it. That’s why he has been sucking hind teat in the polls.

Byron York:

It’s not shocking that George W. Bush’s decision to invade Iraq would come up nearly 13 years after the fact; it pops up in Democratic debates these days, too. But the exchange between Trump and Jeb Bush over Iraq here Saturday night wasn’t just a passing reference. It was in some ways the debate Republicans mostly didn’t have back in 2004, when Democrats were consumed with the war. And here in Greenville, as has happened elsewhere in this campaign, the candidate named Bush had a hard time dealing with the subject.

The back-and-forth started when moderator John Dickerson brought up a 2008 interview with CNN in which Trump said he was surprised that Democrats had not impeached George W. Bush over the war, and that it would be “a wonderful thing” if they had.

On stage Saturday, Trump would not repeat what he said about impeachment — there are apparently limits even for Trump. But he did not hesitate to talk about Iraq. “Obviously, the war in Iraq was a big, fat mistake, all right?” Trump said. “We spent $2 trillion, thousands of lives, we don’t even have it. Iran has taken over Iraq with the second-largest oil reserves in the world.”

“George Bush made a mistake,” Trump continued. “We can make mistakes. But that one was a beauty. We should have never been in Iraq. We have destabilized the Middle East.”

And finally: “They lied,” Trump said of the Bush administration. “They said there were weapons of mass destruction, there were none. And they knew there were none. There were no weapons of mass destruction.”

It’s not the first time Trump has said such things. But he was taking a risk, calculated or not, on saying them in South Carolina. George W. Bush remains popular among state Republicans. Perhaps that does not mean everything Bush did remains equally popular, but slamming the Republican former president so hard is a significant gamble for Trump.

On the other hand, Jeb Bush showed himself (again) unable to address Trump’s basic critique.

“I am sick and tired of him going after my family,” Bush said. “My dad is the greatest man alive, in my mind. And while Donald Trump was building a reality TV show, my brother was building a security apparatus to keep us safe. And I’m proud of what he did.”

Bush even brought his mother into it, defending her against Trump. “Look, I won the lottery when I was born 63 years ago, looked up, and I saw my mom,” Bush said. “My mom is the strongest woman I know.”

The my-mom-is-great argument might not the strongest possible defense of the decision to invade Iraq. To say that Bush didn’t fully engage with Trump would be an understatement.

Nor did Bush address Trump’s rebuttal to the “kept us safe” claim. “The World Trade Center came down during your brother’s reign, remember that,” Trump said. “That’s not keeping us safe.”

The howls of the GOPe could literally be heard all across the country when he said that.

Trump took a yuuge risk by going there. I’m gonna go on record and predict it will eventually be seen as a brilliant move and the coup de grace for Jeb.

I have always believed that the invasion of Iraq was a mistake. I was in the minority at the time, but most Americans have come to agree with me. (FTR: I opposed our interventions in Libya, Syria and Egypt too.)

Saddam Hussein was truly an evil man, and his sons may well have been worse. The world is a better place without them in it. But when we invaded Iraq we set in motion things we could neither predict nor control. (ISIS is one of the consequences, but Barack Obama gets some of the blame for that.)

Just as we did with Vietnam, eventually we have to face the truth about Iraq. It’s not about assigning blame, it’s about learning from our mistakes.

About Myiq2xu™

I lost everything in a Fonzie scheme.
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203 Responses to Trump Goes There

  1. lyn says:

    Excellent post. Jeb! revealed that another Bush presidency would be a yuuuge mistake.

    • Somebody says:

      Yes, it would be more of the same. In another way, I think Trump was challenging the Bush family’s control of the party and by extension most of those in attendance at last night’s debate. Let’s face it, the Bush family or their acolytes have had control of the party apparatus, big money donors, etc., for almost 30 years and many of us don’t like the globalist, squishy republican result.

      • Myiq2xu says:

        Bush did to the GOP what Obama has done to the Democrats. He started with hegemonic control and then lost Congress before he left office with low approval ratings.

        • Somebody says:

          It goes back before that, back to HW. The Bush family has played king maker in the party for more than 30 years.

        • leslie says:

          What cynic said, too.

        • DailyPUMA says:

          Speaking of approval ratings. Bill Clinton is the only president over the past 80 years who left office more popular than when he was elected. Bill Clinton is also the only president over the past 80 years who lowered his annual budget deficit each and every year he was in office. No wonder the neo’s from both parties hate the Clintons and unfortunately the moderates are not into social media as much to defend them and speak highly of them.

        • DailyPUMA says:

          Speaking of approval ratings…Bill Clinton is the only president over the past 80 years who left office more popular than when he was elected. Bill Clinton is also the only president over the past 80 years who lowered his annual budget deficit each and every year he was in office. No wonder the neo’s from both parties hate the Clintons. Unfortunately the moderates are not into social media as much to both defend and praise the Clintons.

  2. Myiq2xu says:

    • Jadzia says:

      REALLY? Because my copy of the Constitution says something about the advice and consent of the Senate.

      • swanspirit says:

        I don’t think an executive order will do this time.

      • Myiq2xu says:

        If the GOP held the White House and Harry Reid controlled the Senate there is no way in hell that a nominee would be approved. I don’t trust Mitch McConnell to hold out. Surrender is in his blood.

        • Somebody says:

          Agree, McConnell has no spine. The best we can hope for is that Obama appoints a moderate in order to avoid a battle……yes I know and the fucking tooth fairy is flying around with unicorns and Santa.

          Obama and the dems including Harry Reid are salivating over the upcoming battle. Their buddies in the media will help them put the squeeze on the the republicans. The republicans will fold like a cheap suit, only question is how quickly they’ll fold.

          • leslie says:

            Reid as of yesterday put out his statement that the nomination AND confirmation should be soon. He is all but demanding it. My thought, at the time I heard it very late in the afternoon was: “Who is the majority leader?” I swear to the heaven, I could not recall McConnell for many minutes. That is just how memorable a presence McConnell has made in my mind.
            The moment I recalled the majority “leader’s” name, I realized we were sunk.

  3. Myiq2xu says:

  4. Myiq2xu says:

    I can’t even

  5. Myiq2xu says:

    Political Twitter is en fuego right now from the death of Scalia and the GOP debate. Lots of haters.

  6. Somebody says:

    I was not a proponent of the invasion of Iraq and you are correct that was a minority view back then, ESPECIALLY in republican circles. I agree Sadam was a ruthless bastard and the world is better off without him. Iraq was a sovereign nation and the US usually isn’t in the business of preemptively attacking sovereign nations because of what might be. We had no cohesive plan to fill the vacuum once we toppled Hussein. Let’s not forget leaders in the administration literally thought we’d be greeted with flowers in the streets. Iraq also took our focus and our resources off Afghanistan and al Qaeda.

    All that being said I did not then nor do I believe now that the Bush administration lied about WMDs. The Clinton administration was convinced there were WMDs, the British, The French, on and on. In fact Hussein wanted everyone to believe he had WMDs.

    Furthermore they found the mother load of yellow cake uranium that took years to get out of the country. Seriously look it up, the last of it they got out after Obama took office. Also when the shit hit the fan in Syria the media reported that Hussein moved his chemical weapons to Syria with the help of the Russian disguised as Americans……something supposedly everybody knew but didn’t dare talk about???? Again look it up, it’s out there. So I think in fact the intelligence was correct on Iraq although overestimated, but was it worth American lives?? I submit it was not. Add to that the clusterfuck that the area has become and it REALLY wasn’t worth it, but as they say hindsight is 20/20. No POTUS has a crystal ball.

    Jeb sucked at trying to defend his brother, WTF was the stuff about his daddy?? Unless it’s true W wanted to attack Iraq to defend daddy’s honor……seriously that’s the only context that makes sense as far as bringing up his father. *******I’m not saying that is why W invaded Iraq, go back and read what I said, I don’t think the administration lied******

    • Somebody says:

      9-11 is a whole different ball of wax. There is plenty of blame to go around and yes some of it belongs squarely on W and his administration’s shoulders. First the Clinton administration made some shit decisions. W’s administration didn’t prioritize terrorism in the early months, they dismissed most of what the Clinton people told them and missed signs in the intelligence. Not all of the failed intelligence can be blamed on W, the laws in place at the time prevented intelligence sharing. Laws enacted by Congress, again plenty of blame to go around, but it’s true W was at the helm when it went down.

      I think the more important issue that the candidates on the stage should have been talking about is what our current POTUS has been doing that puts our nation in danger. Obama’s PC bullshit endangers all of our lives. Tell us how you would do things differently and what you would do to keep us safe.

      • Myiq2xu says:

        Fair or not, Bush was in charge on 9/11 and he can’t just blame it all on Clinton. His administration dropped the ball.

        Trump was correct when he said that GWB did not “keep us safe.”

      • DeniseVB says:

        I was for the war before I was against it. GWB should have turned Afghanistan into a parking lot within days of 9-11. Message sent to that part of the world! Even the anti-war people were supporting that idea and told us to support the President. And here we are 15 years later just swatting flies in the ME, our troops are still dying.

      • Myiq2xu says:

        My position was and is that WMD’s did not justify a preemptive war.

        • Somebody says:

          I agree with you. I’d make an exception to that if we had concrete intelligence that said WMDs were being sold to terrorists to use on the US…..or if the country was going to strike the US or our assets with said WMDs.

      • Venus says:

        I agree that I don’t think W intentionally lied about WMDs (and I also think Saddam moved the to Syria beforehand, hence us finding none) BUT there was no damn reason to go to Iraq and I think W used the WMDs as a pretext (for whatever globalist reason). So what Saddam was an evil man — African countries are full of evil men in charge — do we invade them?

  7. swanspirit says:

    It was pretty obvious to me that Yeb! cannot be objective about his family, and he is a whiny spoiled brat. He said ” I am sick and tired of him going after my family” as if they weren’t the reigning political dynasty of the GOPe. As for Babs Bush, I still remember her Katrina comments, and her remark about Sarah Palin. She can suck a rotten egg AFAIAC.
    Yeb! is too stupid to realize he is one of the reasons Trump is doing so well.

    • taw46 says:

      Jeb is using his family to campaign for him, so they are fair game. They don’t get a pass.

      And I never liked Barbara Bush that much. She can be plenty snarky and has been many times over the years. That’s ok to do that, just let’s not pretend she is some angel.

  8. Myiq2xu says:

    • DeniseVB says:

      Poor Jeb! That poll is certainly no reflection on the hand wringing by the political pundits telling me, again, Trump may be finished, FINISHED I TELL YA. We’ll see how the SC vote swings. It’s a pretty gungho, patriotic state.

      • elliesmom says:

        I have several South Carolina friends, but all but one of them are refugees from the frozen tundra. They’re doing a lot of hand wringing. No way any of them would ever vote for a Republican even if he was the Second Coming, but they think Hillary will have to drop out of the race, and none of them will vote for Bernie. The one friend who is a native South Carolinian likes Trump’s stand on things like immigration, but she thinks he lacks the gentility to be president. She compares his “bad manners” to LBJ. (She has Republican built into her DNA.) But should Trump promise to choose Nikki Haley as his VP and send her to the events that require “dignity and grace”, she could vote for Trump. That’s before last night’ debate, though.

      • foxyladi14 says:

        😆 they have been saying that Trump was done from the beginning.

  9. Dora says:

  10. Dora says:

    • Somebody says:

      I disagree with Trump on that point. I don’t think they intentionally lied. Maybe they embellished a little, but if you go back in time even Bill Clinton was telling the world Hussein had WMDs. Intelligence from multiple countries showed that Hussein had WMDs.

      Trump’s statements last night bordered on the “Bush lied, people died” meme, which is a false meme. Also the moderator drew blood when he brought up Trump’s previous statement regarding impeachment. The impeachment meme was for “War Crimes”. Remember Bush and Cheney should be impeached for war crimes. Those were both democrat talking points. Trump didn’t deny making that statement during an interview back in 2007 or 2008. The fact that he said that, at that time certainly feeds into the “Trump isn’t really a republican” meme.

      I’m a republican that was against the Iraq war and I detest the Bush lied, people died and war crimes bullshit. Trump is running for the republican nomination after all and trust me neither of those memes sit very well in any republican circles. It’s especially rich when you consider at the last debate Mr. Macho Trump declared he’d bring back waterboarding and worse.

      • DeniseVB says:

        I think his point was nobody fears us and to save American lives he’d go full badass on the enemy. Even go medievil ! Yuuuuge! Our military is pretty weak now under a PC President who’s appointed limpdick generals and admirals based on agreeing with his social issues. Just check back on all the military leaders Obama has relieved of commands because they dared challenge his decisions. Like the Benghazi rescue.

        • taw46 says:

          Yes, that pisses me off, all the leaders he got rid of over the years. In a sane world, the media would be all over that.

        • 1539days says:

          Except Cruz had just said waterboarding was acceptable in extreme circumstances. Trump tried to one up him by saying he’d do worse than waterboarding. I don’t believe there’s any technique worse than waterboarding that would not violate the Geneva convention. Trump still won’t answer what the hell he meant by that.

        • mcnorman says:

          It is worse than you can possibly imagine. Really, really bad.

      • 1539days says:

        Those of us who voted for Bush really bristle at those slogans. If Trump is trying to get Republicans to even consider voting for him, this crap bordering on Trutherism ain’t gonna do it.

        • elliesmom says:

          I admit I never voted for anyone with Bush in his name so I’m not personally offended by Trump’s remarks about Bush and the Iraqi war. When the Shrub ran against Algore, I voted for Harry Truman. Trump doesn’t need all Republicans to vote for him to get the nomination. Just enough of them coupled with unaffiliated voters and crossover Dems in states where they’re allowed to vote in the Republican primary or attend a Republican caucus. The sooner the Democratic nomination is secured, the more Democrats will feel free to crossover for whatever reason they have. Disgust with the Dems or wanting to wreak havoc for the Republicans. Once Trump has the nomination, his strategy could be to go after the voters who are not Republicans more than the traditional Republicans. There are more of us than there are of you, and frankly, I don’t see any path for Trump’s ever getting your vote. Opening an honest dialogue about the war in Iraq and the mess in the Middle East since then might even get him a few votes from Democrats if Hillary is the nominee. You’re just not his constituency, and I’m pretty sure he’s figured that out.

          • 1539days says:

            Not gonna happen. He’s polling at 35% in states where anyone can vote in a primary. The candidates who are accumulating delegates (Cruz, Rubio) won’t throw their delegates to Trump. I may not be his constituency, but who is? He’s pissing off 60-70% of Republicans in a Republican primary. He’s the Democrats’ favorite Republican.

          • lyn says:

            Well said, em. As an independent in a closed primary state, I registered as a Republican to vote for Trump. I support working class Americans who have been screwed by the UniParty. The GOPe will have only itself to blame if a Democrat is elected in 2016. I think the House and Senate Republicans do not want a Republican president, because that would risk their re-elections. It’s all about power and money.

          • elliesmom says:

            Days, When the primaries switch to winner takes all, 35% will be enough for Trump to clear the table if the other candidates stay in the race and continue to split the “Not Trump” vote. Carson and maybe Kasich will drop out before that happens, but as long as Cruz, Rubio, and Bush keep picking up about the same number of delegates as each other, none of those egos is going down easy. Even if the race becomes 3-way, 35% could still win it, and depending on which one dropped out, Trump might pick up some of his voters. I’m not saying Trump will win the nomination- just that he doesn’t need you to do it.

        • Anthony says:

          Its obvious that the Republicans have no intention of supporting Trump. They want Rubio (which is why Jeb!™ is still polling so low). By bringing Dubbya’s failures into the mix, he’s appealing to moderate Dems who are appalled at their choices (“OK – how do you want to die? Poison? or gunshot wounds”?)

          This was a brilliant move to relocate Dems who are lukewarm in their feelings toward Hillary into his camp. The FSA (Free Shit Army) who is supporting Bernie (who is polling about 20 points behind Hillary in SC) will never switch from Bernie to Trump, so they’re not worth going after. Smarter move than anyone is giving him credit for, especially those who are blinded by their visceral hatred of Trump despite his political savvy.

  11. Myiq2xu says:

  12. Myiq2xu says:

  13. Myiq2xu says:

  14. DeniseVB says:


  15. DeniseVB says:

  16. Myiq2xu says:

    If Donald Trump is right, and George W. Bush deliberately schemed with his neo-con advisers to “lie” us into a phony war with Iraq, what does that say about the average Republican voter who supported Bush from 1999, voted for him, defended him through the recount, cried with him on 9/11, agreed with him on Iraq, defended him from ceaseless liberal attacks on him during the war, defended him from Obama’s never-expiring “Blame Bush” blame-shifting, etc.?

    If Trump is right, then we’re not just wrong to have supported him. If Trump’s right, we’re goddamned rubes and fools to have defended this Actual Hitler-Level Monster for going on 17 years now.

    It is a lot easier on the ego to say “I was lied to” than “I was wrong”. What Ace fails to realize is that not everyone was as emotionally invested in GWB as he was.

  17. Venus says:

    Bryan York left out the line of the night — when Jeb! said his mom was the strongest person he knows, Trump said “She should be running.”

    Second best line was to the ridiculous audience heckling “I only tell the truth, lobbyists.”

    Trump was also the only one to mention Carrier closing and the loss of American jobs overseas.

  18. Myiq2xu says:

  19. Dora says:

  20. jennifer lyn says:

    I think Trump made a huge error and I wish he had not said the word ‘lied.’ I disagree and I think it hurts him. And I don’t care if they had womd or not they deserved to be bombed to oblivion. But the minor hurt Trump may get from this statement is not enough to matter. Also, Scalia dying does not sit right with me…not at all…if you know what I mean.

    • DeniseVB says:

      There was fiesty discussion on Scalia and the debate in the last thread. I just caught up myself and sorry I missed it. You’re in good company 🙂

  21. DeniseVB says:

    What is Hillary doing? It’s been about 17 years, this was when she was FLOTUS, has been a Senator and SoS since, we still have this problem now and then.

  22. DeniseVB says:

    True story.

  23. DandyTIger says:

    Best election ever. Chaos2016!!

    • Somebody says:

      Playing into Chaos2016……and I don’t think for a millisecond this would happen, but what if Obama nominated Trump’s sister? She’s supposedly a republican however she’s ruled as a liberal from the bench even supporting partial birth abortion.

      I think Obama will nominate an AA. The AA community was not happy with him when he didn’t pick an AA with the two he’s already nominated. Plus with an AA nominee the dems can scream racist, racist, racist.

      However if he did nominate Trump’s sister then what? What would the R’s do?? She’s supposedly a republican, their potential nominees sibling. If he did would we Trump defend his sister the way Jeb defends his brother??? It would certainly test Trump’s mettle. It would play into war on women if the R’s delayed… many ways to play it.

      BTW I think the most presidential move for Obama is to appoint a recess appointment immediately. Perhaps bring back Souter or O’Connor temporarily, or one of the senior appeals judges, then submit his actual nominee and fight for confirmation. He won’t do that because it’s presidential.

      • sleepyhead says:

        A surprising number of people are pushing for Michelle to be nominated. I can’t even, as the kids say. But I did find out today that one does not need a law license (or even a law degree, surprisingly) to be a Supreme Court justice. Interesting.

        Another scenario that is being tossed around is for Obama to resign and for Biden to turn around and nominate *him*. Ugh.

  24. Dora says:

    CNN announces 2 town halls in South Carolina this week:

    Wednesday: Carson, Cruz & Rubio

    Thursday: Bush, Kasich & Trump

    • Somebody says:

      CNN is looking for ratings. They want Cruz and Rubio to go after each other and they want Trump and Bush to fight.

      I’d love to be proven wrong, I’d love to see substantive discussions….but I’d also like to buy the winning lottery ticket. If CNN really want to help inform voters they would have lined up the 3 “outsiders” to highlight their differences and the 3 “establishment” candidates to help refine and define them.

  25. 1539days says:

    I have no doubt that many people wanted to hear what Trump said about 9/11 and the war on Terror. Few of them are registered Republicans. I can also believe that some Republicans tacitly agree with some of those conclusions. The problem is that Trump didn’t attack the Bush family, he went after the Republican family.

    You can talk with your relatives about how crazy or what a pain in the ass people in your family are. At the same time, you can have a much more negative reaction to other people talking shit about your family. Trump and his supporters are like second cousins by marriage in the GOP. That kind of talk highlights how you’re not really part of the family.

    Is Trump going to tank in SC? Maybe not. That state is an open primary. So was NH, where Trump got 35%. Iowa was a closed caucus and he got 24%. Trump can still go full Perot and run as an independent, but I think his chances of being nominated in July just went to 0.

    • driguana says:

      While I appreciate this sentiment, 1539, it appears that what is actually happening in this current political process is that some elements of the Democrat Party are attacking the Democrat family and some factions of the Republican Party are attacking the Republican family. I think this is actually good, in my humble opinion, as both parties need to get a new grip on the realities and issues of this moment. Both parties need to reconstitute themselves. And perhaps it is time for another party to emerge. Seemed unlikely not too long ago but now seems very possible. Ironically, and fortunately or unfortunately, Trump is the only one clearly taking on the hard issues. Odd times. For me personally, neither of the political parties nor any of the candidates, represents my own personal political points of view which are a melange of conservative economics, and moderate to liberal social perspectives.

      • lyn says:

        Well said. A political realignment is occurring, and it isn’t pretty. Obama sucked the oxygen out of the country, and now everyone is fighting to breathe again.

        • Obama finished sucking the oxygen out of the country. 9/11 and Bush’s subsequent actions with war in regard to Iraq sucked out half the oxygen. I still stand by my thesis that Obama is Bush 2.0.

      • 1539days says:

        I know everyone’s excited about the possibility of a new party that represents their personal belief system, but history has shown that third parties in the US are either quashed or co-opted pretty quickly. The last new party was the Republican Party and it’s almost 160 years old. It also replaced the Whig Party instead of being a third option. The Democratic Party is even older, going back about two centuries.

        Now, an 1860 Republican and a 1960 (or 2010) Republican are different from each other. Same for Democrats from different eras. Sanders and Clinton may be saying different things, but I think they will be forced into similar actions by the Democratic Party if they win the general election. Right now, the DNC is trying to figure out which one is more electable rather than who best exemplifies Democratic values.

        Donald Trump reminds me of Arianna Huffington. Back in the 1990’s, Huffington was a right wing firebrand who hated Bill and Hillary Clinton to the core. She started her leftist media empire during the Bush administration and suddenly he was on her hit list as well. Donald Trump talks about how terrible Barack Obama is now, but just after he was elected, Trump wanted to give Obama a chance because he though Bush was such a terrible president.

        In fact, the president Trump seemed to like most was Bill Clinton. If I were more conspiracy minded, I’d say Trump was running some false flag campaign to get Hillary Clinton elected.

        • Donald Trump reminds me of Arianna Huffington.

          Look, there’s a whole graduate paper to be written on how this is the political model for elites. Look at David Brock. Or Markos Moulitsas. Arianna Huffington is, of course, another example. These are elites we’re talking about. They follow the money. Of course Trump is following the money. That’s how you know he has a real shot at winning.

      • leslie says:

        Thank you for putting it this way. I know my views have changed over time. I too am more conservative r/t economics. Possibly because I’m older and more pragmatic. I remain moderate in my social leanings. This is definitely a bigger change, I think. Friends who have not changed are telling me they no longer recognize me vis-à-vis my political beliefs.

    • Ann says:

      Meh. He’s running as an outsider concerned because the Republican leaders don’t respect the Republican base (and the long game of American politicians in Washington not respecting the people who send them to Washington). He’s pointed that out again and again and again during this run, and it only attracts more support. I’m not really sure how criticizing an extremely unpopular Republican President, and actually saying out loud what many people of the base think (it’s worked on many other verboden issues so far) will hurt him in the long run.

      I found it odd he did this last night though. I’m surprised he didn’t hold his powder until after South Carolina (he’s already moving on and saying things as if he were the nominee… a little early, perhaps?) He needs to take out the money guy though. I guess you go for the kill shot when the opportunity presents itself. Otherwise, you end up missing the opportunity. Better too early than too late may be his thinking.

      If he wins South Carolina after this, he really could shoot a man 5th Avenue and still win the nomination.

    • Somebody says:

      I understand what you’re saying 1539 and I said upthread that impeachment talk about W doesn’t sit well in ANY republican circles. However, driguana is also correct there seems to be a realignment taking place in both parties.

      I agree with you that SC isn’t going to be a true test since it’s an open primary, but Super Tuesday is just around the corner.

      • Myiq2xu says:

        This is as good a place as any to point out that there are millions of voters out there who were too young to vote when we invaded Iraq.

        • driguana says:

          Let alone Vietnam. That’s why this is inherently a good time to rearrange the political parties and political process…large amounts of cultural amnesia.

        • Somebody says:

          Yes and a generation that saw many of their friends sign up to serve because we were attacked. Many of their friends didn’t come home and many came home forever changed.

          My older 2 were in HS on 9-11, my son a senior. We live in small town USA, lots of kids signed up. They signed up to go after Bin Laden and AL Qaeda, not Sadam Hussein.

          • lyn says:

            Remember Pat Tillman. The documentary about his friendly-fire death made my blood boil. After the hearing on the cover up of how Tillman died, Rumsfeld and military brass laughed and shook hands. Evil fuckers.

        • 1539days says:

          And they’re voting for Bernie Sanders.

        • Anthony says:


          “But what if Hillary Clinton gets the nomination sewn up before the primaries are over?”

          Then they’ll move to Trump. That was the brilliance of his bringing Dubbya’s failures into the conversation.

  26. leslie says:

    I did not watch the debate. So I cannot comment on it. But after reading yesterday’s and this morning’s threads, I can say this campaign season is becoming fierce and war-like. I am not so amused as I am concerned. Some (of what I’ve read) has been frightening. Especially if we are to see any real change in our leadership.
    I have no solutions, just real anxiety about what is happening.

    • 1539days says:

      I may not be crazy about people voting for the guy who lies to them the best, but it least the blame is on the candidate. I’m worried about this move to authoritarianism. Bernie Sanders basically wants to get involved in everyone’s life and make sure they have all the stuff they want and then claim it’s what they need.

      • leslie says:

        When I hear mini-interviews with the millennials who support Bernie, I just cringe. Their grasp of history begins and ends with them. Yesterday, one of them said, “It’s time this country became a socialist country”. It seems to be another way to avoid personal responsibility. How do they think getting “all the stuff they want” will result in a better nation? They don’t think. Period.

        • DeniseVB says:

          Just point them to Venezuela, better yet, send them there 🙂 Most Bernie kids want the free stuff and flip burgers for more than a paramedic makes. Most Trump supporters want to smack the living sh*t out of them 😛

          • leslie says:

            When Venezuela was pointed out in this particular interview, the millennial looked as dazed and confused as could be. It is shameful.

          • elliesmom says:

            Venezuela? Where’s that? They can’t figure out which continent is Africa and which one is South America on anything but a Mercator projection map with the western hemisphere on the left.

  27. Jadzia says:

    I’m guessing that only the link will post, but it’s awesome. I give you: Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Antonin Scalia. On an elephant.

  28. driguana says:

    One of the things that any of the current candidates could do, and if Trump did it, it would be brilliant, would be to propose a major urban initiative. There hasn’t been a real major urban policy program since when….LBJ? I know Sanders is talking about fixing up the infrastructure and putting people to work doing it like the CCC and WPA projects of old did like Obama has been espousing. But I mean a real clear agenda….this is what I plan to do to help Detroit, Chicago, Baltimore, Atlanta, Cleveland, Los Angeles…etc. It is the one way to really earn votes in those areas despite their demographics.

  29. Bernie on Face the Nation right now talking about that old buzzword “surrogates.” As in, “We have surrogates working for us.” And then name dropping black people. He makes me wince.

  30. Myiq2xu says:

    Does anyone feel like putting up a VD post? I am not in the mood.

  31. votermom says:

  32. Venus says:

    Best summary I’ve seen about the debate:

    I am not a Trump supporter but that was a bloodbath. He tied that whole stage and audience into a package and stamped “Washington Bulls–t” on it. Then he set it on fire and walked off.

    • lyn says:

      AFVet said the only Trump supporters in the audience were his wife and son.

    • mcnorman says:

      What a beautiful descriptive! Thank you Venus.

    • DeniseVB says:

      From Bettyangelo at MOTUS. (Team Trump’s been on fire over there today, especially trying to dig into brains of the undecideds)

      My take on the debate after watching them all let their hair down:
      1. Kasich: The Valium never quite wore off enough for him to engage with the democrats who wondered if they might vote R.
      2. Jeb! : The whiner on the play ground speaking up because finally, his cousins showed up.
      3. Cruz: Slinging facts while the mud flies. Kind of like defending yourself with spit balls while your antagonist is after you with a damn staple gun.
      4. Trump: King of the hill slinging the mud and the whipping out the staple gun.
      5. Rubio: I kept calling him a dirty little spic. What did you call him?
      6. Carson: His Valium was just kicking in.

      The most important thing for me was the war with Isis and Islam, which they proclaimed on us. Jeb and Kasich and Carson and Rubio would put us in position to be at war for many decades to come. Cruz and Trump were the only ones who would stomp ass and get out. While Trump was a wild man, Cruz was awesome, long winded, but awesome. Rubio just makes my skin crawl. He has great answers, as if he had been reading WZ or here to find out what we think, then made a speech at us. He will not back down on immigration – my skin crawled at his proposal to declare illegals here legally, but not citizens. What’s that? A slave under class? He spilled the beans on the GOPe’s idea to “compromise”. Jeb is just a big dufus. Jebus he’s a dufus. I expected him to plant his hands on his hips and shake his finger at Trump, who was relentless and ruthless in his knocking of the establishment’s choice.

      It was fine entertainment, provided by Trump. He was completely human in his attacks, no restrained postures, trained like a monkey. Just raw. Like I feel, yelling what I’d like to yell at them.

  33. Venus says:

    Runner up:

  34. DeniseVB says:

    LOL, true story …. via MOTUS

    Janice the Elder Bettyangelo • 40 minutes ago
    I think it’s called a hostile takeover. Those of us who are voting for Mr. Trump are not voting for a republican candidate, we’re voting for the candidate who is going to take over the republican party.

    [Tweeted by Eminent Jeffmain]

    You “conservative pundits” still don’t get it:
    Trump isn’t our candidate.
    He’s our murder weapon.
    And the GOP is our victim.

    We good, now?

  35. Dora says:

    New SC Poll!

  36. elliesmom says:

    My take from last night’s debate? “Sorry Republican establishment. Trump’s just not into you.”

    • taw46 says:

      I tried searching follow-up articles, they have been scrubbed. But Jeb won, they took the land. He had to move in 2006 (he did get the 5 mil, but didn’t want to leave). That was some article, and he was right, EPA wants to bunch everyone up in cities and make you afraid to go out there.

  37. SHV says:

    “Trump poured gasoline on 30 years of neocon foreign policy thinking and lit the match…”
    I remember like it was yesterday, when Cheney and Rumsfeld waved the Sunday NYT with the bullshit Judy Miller’s “Aluminum Tube” story. Haven’t bought a Sunday NYT since that day.

  38. SHV says:

    ” waved the Sunday NYT…”
    “on the Sunday “news” shows…”

  39. SHV says:

    “That was the start of the collusion between the press and the government.”
    That collusion has been “forever”; consolidation of “news” into a few corporations, enabled with “bi-partisan” support, has really screwed this Country.

  40. DailyPUMA says:

    Speaking of approval ratings…Bill Clinton is the only president over the past 80 years who left office more popular than when he was elected. Bill Clinton is also the only president over the past 80 years who lowered his annual budget deficit each and every year he was in office. No wonder the neo’s from both parties hate the Clintons. Unfortunately the moderates are not into social media as much to both defend and praise the Clintons.

    • Somebody says:

      I just saw Rinsed Penis on the TV and he said it was local SC voters. He said the tickets were evenly divided between the candidates……are you saying he wasn’t being honest Dora?? I’m shocked, shocked I tell ya.

    • lyn says:

      “One well-placed source who works for one of the GOP presidential campaigns and was in attendance at the debate on Saturday evening here—but was not authorized to speak on record about the matter—told Breitbart News that Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) and South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley were personally given scores of tickets to distribute. Both despise Trump and have said so publicly–Haley even using the platform of the official GOP response to the State of the Union to do so–and it would be no surprise if they did aim to stack the audience with anti-Trump sentiment.”

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