Milogate Opens A Window Into Gay Culture

In our lifetimes we have seen homosexuality go from being considered a mental disorder to mainstream acceptance. In the process, some aspects of gay culture have been suppressed and/or sanitized. As our gay friend Mothy can tell you, it ain’t all fabulous. Lots of drugs and promiscuity – stuff you don’t see on Will and Grace or Modern Family. That is a major reason why the AIDS epidemic was so devastating to the gay community.

But we aren’t supposed to talk about that stuff. It’s not politically correct.

I’m not judging – there are aspects of heterosexuality that are nasty and raunchy too. Gay and straight kids begin to explore their sexuality at the same ages. In both worlds there are adults who prey on teens and young adults. The age of consent varies. Some activities are criminal. There is a gray area of activities that are technically legal but morally reprehensible.

Many of us find these topics to be icky and feel uncomfortable discussing them openly. Milogate has opened a window into the seamy side of gay culture. We should not allow the “ick factor” to cloud our judgment.

I don’t have any answers.


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I was born and raised in a different country - America. I don't know what this place is.
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168 Responses to Milogate Opens A Window Into Gay Culture

  1. lateblum says:

    Bringing this up from the thread below. The newest post didn’t show up on my iPad until after posted…
    As far as I know, I am way OT here; I haven’t had the time to read TCH this morning. I didn’t have time to read the paper except for a couple of things yesterday. One was a cry from a writer, Heidi Stevens, entitled “A plea to the Obamas: Help save Chicago“. In it Ms. Stevens begs bronco and his mare to return to the city that “embraced” him and now needs him to help Chicago “live up to” the city’s “promise”. Ms. Stevens writes as if the Obamas care about anything but themselves. (ha!) if I can find the link, I’ll be back to share it with you.

    This morning I read the column by John Kass, my favorite Tribune writer. It made me laugh out loud and anyone who has seen the BIG movies of the year will know why. I thought I’d share it here….

    • DeniseVB says:

      What’s the deal on the Obama McMansion? I’ve barely heard it mentioned in the past 8 years, nor do I believe the Obamas are staying in DC so Sasha can finish h.s. while the media is bashing Melania for doing the same for Barron. As a military brat I was ripped out of school mid-year many times.

      Also, the Obamas’ don’t seem to be making any effort to raise money for their library, which is required. Read recently the costs have ballooned to over a billion dollars?

      Always love reading your perspectives on local politics, has Chicago figured out the Obamas don’t give a sh*t about them? 😛

      • lateblum says:

        I’ve read/heard nada r/t bronco’s McMansion in Kenwood. He was here last week and I assume he stayed there. But I live no where near there and since retiring, have no more contact with those who do.
        I am continuously perplexed and admittedly surprised when I read articles like the one I’m linking to in which the writer assumes Obama has some deep, heartfelt connection and love for Chicago. His wife may have grown up here, but his connection to the city is one of convenience and ambition. I imagine the girls have friends here, just as I had in the city we left when I was in high school. However my opportunities to visit my lost hometown were non-existent and so those friends remained lost to me distant. (Granted The Internet was not invented and relying on snail mail was all I had then. I guess I gave up too soon.) The Obama girls have had myriad chances and financial resources to return (i.e. Lollapalooza) and have done so.
        Chicago continues to experience massive damage to its black underclass done by its underclass: drugs, gangs, gun violence, lack of education and employment opportunities -perpetuated by TPTB. There are moments when church pastors come together to eschew the violence and call for peace, yet those moments are in reaction to even greater violence and damage to the people who continue to be victims ( of the Dem propaganda and control). Still the move toward peace and success for the greater black population is stuck in the mire of violence and death. Fr Michael Pflager, (who I used to admire until he became so strident that he is now a sad joke AFAIC), Pastor Andrew Holmes (whose extended family member eleven year old Takiya was killed last week), and others actively seek peace and an end to violence. Others like Jamail Greene and others of his ilk find the upheaval to suit their need to file up everyone and to justify their demands. Demands that they say will help the community, but will, in the end, help gain them notoriety and perhaps standing, but will leave their “community” behind. Just as has happened repeatedly in the past.
        Sorry for the tangent. The link to the stupidly hopeful column from Sunday’s Tribune is below.

        • CiscoKid says:

          Obama didn’t do jack💩for Chicago during his 8 years as president.
          He never spoke up once during last years blood bath in Chicago.
          Neither did the fake “Rev’s” Jackson or Sharpton

  2. votermom says:

    I really think that age 12 13 14 – sexuality is malleable.
    If Milo hadn’t been molested, maybe he would be straight.

    • Anthony says:

      As another ‘gay friend of TCH’, I have to chime in here.

      I’ve heard that theory (an early homosexual experience “turns” someone gay) a lot, and have to say that I strongly and very disrespectfully disagree. There is no way that a young straight person can be “turned” gay because of an early sexual experience, whether it was by consent or if they were the unfortunate victim of molestation. You’re either gay or you’re not.

      I knew from an early age that I was gay. Any gay person I’ve ever spoken to about this has said the same. There is NO choice in orientation, otherwise, every straight person would be able to recall the defining moment when they chose to be straight instead of gay.

      Have I heard “professional gays” (gay people who blame their sexuality for each and every unfortunate thing that happens to them) make that same claim? Of course I have, but that doesn’t mean its true. Our sexual orientation is only a small part of who we are, not the defining factor on how we identify ourselves as whole people. Our validation and self worth is determined more by the content of our character rather than our sexual orientation.

      If a young gay person grows up in an environment where they’re told (and subsequently believe) that their natural sexual orientation makes them a bad person, then they’re going to believe it and use it to justify anything bad that befalls them (“I didn’t get that job because I’m gay! I didn’t get that apartment because I’m gay! I hate being gay, and if it weren’t for (enter your first sexual experience), I would be straight!”). Sorry – I think that’s total bullshit.

      Milo knew he was gay before he (willingly, according to him) had sex with his priest. He didn’t get “turned” that way – he already was gay, and seized the opportunity to fulfill an early adolescent fantasy.

      If anyone should be criticized, scrutinized or evaluated, it should be the adult (in this case, the priest), who had sex with a 13 year old, even if said 13 year old instigated the event.

      • votermom says:

        I just think it’s a spectrum. Some people, like you, knew from an early age they were gay. Just like some people from an early age know they’re straight. But I think there are a lot of kids in the neutral zone, who don’t really think about sex at all, and early experience colors their perception.
        I know this is true for a lot of girls. They fall in love with other girls in middle school or high school, then as adults they realize they’re straight after all.

        • votermom says:

          (at all girls schools)

        • Anthony says:

          I have to once again respectfully disagree, but this time, more strongly.

          I choose to preface this comment with an assurance that I certainly hold you in the same high esteem as I always have, and although I can understand and appreciate the logical process that brought you to that conclusion (spectrum, etc), I am here as a real live gay person who has answered the “What makes someone gay?” question with my own answer as well as the testament of hundreds – perhaps thousands – of gay people, both male and female, that I have known my entire life. Straight from the horse’s (plural) mouth(s) – we always knew.

          That runs the gamut of the most well adjusted gays (of which I wasn’t always). to those who indulged in self loathing or the acceptance of “victim status” because of an unforgiving and judgmental societal imposition. Those that comprise the latter group have, after seeking therapy to help them accept their nature, admitted that they always knew. Others have said that they always knew, but then used their orientation as a handicap, but have nevertheless admitted, (in some cases reluctantly), that they always knew. From day one of their own sexual awareness.

          As a child, neither myself or any of my gay friends ever thought about our sexual orientation, but once hormones kicked in and our adolescent emotional development continued to evolve, we knew.

          There was a time when I resented the “What makes someone gay?” question because it suggested that being gay was something wrong, or some other kind of un-natural affliction. It isn’t.

          I was forced out of the closet in 1968 by my sister. I had experienced sex with both a male and a female in the span of a week (I was a horny little fucker lol), and wrote ONE line in my diary: “God, I hope I’m bisexual”. What I was thinking when I wrote that was “God, I hope I’m not like Uncle Jean-Claude who would fuck anything that moved, crawled, made a sound, or was room temperature”. I never had reason to believe my Uncle had sex with men, but he was a total man-whore, and I believed that if I was bisexual, I would at least be discriminating… My sister broke into my room and presented my diary to my parents, and you can imagine the hell my life became after that.

          That night, I attempted suicide because I just couldn’t bear living in that house of judgmental people who treated me like some kind of anomaly. Obviously, it didn’t work (but I did have a 3 day buzz from all of the pills I swallowed). My family was aware of what I had done, but nobody asked me what made me so unhappy. Nobody took me to a doctor – they just ignored that it had happened, because to actually do something about it, “other people” would know I was gay.

          When my 3 day high wore off, I asked myself the question “What were you trying to accomplish?” My answer was “Trying to get out of here”. The next entry in my diary was another one-liner: “Next time, use the door, jackass!” I was 16 at the time, and from that moment on, I stayed under the radar until I was legal age. Two years later, I turned 18 at the end May, and turned the key in the lock of my new apartment on June 1.

          I have to say that before I accepted myself, I kept a stroke count in the back of my diary of who I had sex with in my teens. There were only 3 women and a TON of guys, and ultimately, I discovered (with the help of a good therapist) that I was attempting to fit into a world in which I believed I didn’t belong because everyone around me judged my natural state of being as “broken”. The proof was in the numbers for me, and so the healing began.

          I shared that personal story to let you know what its like to have been gay in the 1950’s/1960’s, and how traumatic it was when everyone thought that being gay was either a choice or an unnatural affliction. In hindsight, my being outed and subsequent suicide attempt was the best thing that ever happened to me, because I chose to accept myself as I always knew I was rather than to believe that I made a bad choice or had some kind of mental illness.

          We don’t get “turned” gay. We don’t choose “Option B” on the orientation form. We only struggle to accept our true nature, and its harder for some than it is for others to ultimately love ourselves.

          If anyone made it to the end of this tome, thank you for taking the time to read it.

          • votermom says:

            Anthony, you know I love and value you and I’m truly sorry for any comment that caused you pain.

          • CiscoKid says:

            Anthony, first, saying thank-you for sharing such a personal story just isn’t enough, I can’t find the words to tell how grateful I am.
            Secondly, that is the BEST explanation on the subject I’ve ever read, ever.

          • DeniseVB says:

            ❤ Beautiful, thanks for sharing. Teen angst is hard on all teens, wasn't easy "coming of age" in those days. But, hey, you were getting more action than I was in h.s. 😀 I remember our girlie slumber parties practice kissing on each other. Nah, girls didn't do it for me, was I glad when I finally got to practice with boys. I think it's how we're wired from an early age,

          • equanimus says:

            Still, you are only one datapoint. A valid one, but only one.

          • mothy67 says:

            Tremendous respect.

  3. Dora says:

    • taw46 says:

      And Denise did not get tickets. 😥

      • lateblum says:

        Maybe some people turned back their tickets when they thought Milo would be speaking. There might be some floating around.
        Denise, try getting a ticket now. Look on stubhub or some other site.

      • DeniseVB says:

        I’m glad I’m not going. All those NeverTrumpers spiking the football over forcing Milo out since last night just makes me cringe.

        On the other hand, some from the Deploraball are throwing a party and calling it the Bull Moose Party (and currently infighting on the original meaning of Bull Moose Party, lol!)

        This wasn’t my year either 😉

  4. dm says:

    Hmmm, sounds like a hit job to me. Age of consent, teenage hormones/angst, older guys…I had an “older guy” when I was around 17. Not sure what the age of consent was, my guess I was past it. He was about 8 years older. I didn’t think it was creepy neither did my friends. But, physical/sexual development does vary in individuals. Personally, I think anything less than 18 is questionable but I certainly didn’t wait that long. Motherhood does make you re-evaluate things.

    As a gossipy side note, that is reportedly why many celebrities spend so much time abroad…the age of consent varies greatly from country to country, so they can fulfill their fantasies and not worry about consequences.

    • Jadzia says:

      I have long been retroactively creeped out by every grown man who wanted to “spend time” with me when I was a teenager. Come to think of it, I was usually creeped out by said men at the time, too.

  5. elliesmom says:

    I don’t have any insights into the gay community. I have gay and Lesbian friends, but they’re old married fogies like me. The joke they told me, “What does a Lesbian bring on a second date? A U-haul”, resonates, and their issues have all centered around marriage and adoption.

    But I’m going out on a limb here to say while I don’t understand the sexual exhibitionism of the gay community, it serves a purpose for them. It’s not as important for me to understand what that purpose is as it is for me to understand when that purpose has been met, the culture will change. My experience with my gay nephew who has not yet come out to his dad says that coming out is still not as easy as it should be. Heterosexual young people are a lot freer to experiment with sex than gay and Lesbian kids are. No one freaks out (much) if we find 12 year old boys and girls playing kissing games. I’m 100% sure I had a couple of gay boys in one 8th grade class because they were “out”. I know they were sizing each other up, but there’s no way they could have got away with playing spin the bottle with each other at a party. Perhaps, teen aged boys do look for older gay men to help them explore their sexuality, and maybe it’s because finding other teen aged gay boys is difficult, and even when you find one, there are a lot more social pitfalls than straight kids have. Are there older guys who prey on that need? Sure. We’re not quite at the place where being gay is “no big deal” for kids, though, and if young boys don’t feel victimized, then we shouldn’t turn them into victims. We should save our concerns for the ones who feel they are. We should be listening to the gay community because we’re only on the outside looking in. Milo seems very comfortable in his gay skin. How he got there is none of our business unless he asks for help.

  6. Venus says:

    I admit the “twink” thing in the gay community has always struck me as creepy. (full disclosure: I also find a 35-40 year old man with an 18 year old girl creepy too).
    But maybe what elliesmom wrote above — and what Milo was *actually* talking about – is true. The twink thing developed due to the lack of other gay boys among a young gay boy’s peers.
    The fact is, we as a society have become much more accepting of LGBT community (and we should be, IMO), but they do make up a very small percentage of the population. I never thought about it before, but a gay teen probably doesn’t have that much of a choice of “dates” at his high school so he goes to look for it some where else and that “somewhere else” leads him to older men.
    I do think though that the age of consent is something I will not waiver on and that older men who do go out with this under age boys should be condemned. Fine with me if the line of 16 or 17 (depending on where you are) is “arbitrary” — the line does need to be drawn somewhere, and any younger than that is just too young, IMO.

    • When I was 14-15 if some 30 year old woman had tried to seduce me I would have done it, enjoyed it, and not considered myself a victim.

      • taw46 says:

        Milo points that out, I think it was in the video that you just posted below. Many people do not get upset if a 14 yr old male has sex with his female teacher, but feel the opposite if it is a 14 yr old boy with a male teacher. And again, I am not condoning either one, just acknowledging the disparity here.

      • blowme0bama says:

        Assuming she was hot.

      • lateblum says:

        I had a friend who told me his first sexual encounters were with his 18 y/o babysitter. He was 10-11 and he said these encounters happened many times over. He said he didn’t think anything of this. I found this to be most likely one of the things in his background that left him looking at women only as sex objects and having serious difficulties establishing real relationships. His marriages cratered; his relationships with his kids were nonexistent at that point; his potential for future positive experiences with other women appeared doomed. We’d be out somewhere and he’d see a woman – any woman – and say, “I’d hit her” as if that was cute (and normal). These types of comments often led to conversations about the nature of his relationships to himself and to others. One time, when he saw a young girl, he said the something similar. After I commented on his possible need for therapy, he experienced me as judgmental. It’s been years since I’ve run into him. My guess is he’s still making these kinds of statements, and still struggling with his failure at having real relationships.
        I think early sexual experiences do affect people. I don’t necessarily agree that they can “turn” someone into something they are not. But they certainly can have an effect – both good and bad.

    • kanaughty says:

      I wonder if he got the term twink from video games, or if video games took over this word. specifically twink is something in Player vs. player game play. twink is when you level to the highest level within a bracket, then turn off leveling, then max out your gear and potions, etc. so you can beat everyone in your bracket every time you play a match gaining honor points for more gear and/or more gold or in game money. so like someone hits level 19 and turns off leveling so they can beat everyone in level 10-19 bracket by sheer force of gear.

  7. AFVet says:

    “We should not allow the “ick factor” to cloud our judgement.”

    Why, that sounds pretty progressive to me.
    What I allow or dis-allow is completely and totally up to me.
    Homosexuality is not normal.
    Pedophilia in any form is flat out wrong.
    Just who in the hell determines the age of consent?
    Children have not lived long enough to make that kind of decision.
    Muslims “marry” 9 year old girls and we call that wrong.
    What if a gay man “married” a 9 year old boy? Would that be wrong?

    Everything the progressives touch is reduced to embracing low moral standards due to liberal judges that are infecting the court systems placed there by progressives.

    The military has always had gay soldiers but the “don’t ask don’t tell” bullshit that Obama started is just another example of them forcing their agenda down our throats.
    The Boy Scouts is another one.

    Christian businesses that refuse to go against their beliefs concerning gays are fined.

    I am a Christian, Lutheran to be exact, and I believe that the Bible is God’s Word.
    Many places throughout the Bible tells us that homosexuality is wrong.
    For a homosexual to say that they embrace Christianity proves that they are a liar
    For a homosexual to stand in front of a congregation and preach God’s Word is disgusting.

    Leviticus, 20 vs 13 states:
    If a man also lie with mankind. as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    The progressive movement is a stain on any society that it touches, the main intention being to turn people away from what they feel is wrong or unnatural, and invoke some sort of punishment on them if they refuse to comply.
    Leave us Christians alone.

    So, to the fudge packers out there, have at it.
    Just don’t tell me it’s OK,…because it isn’t.

    It’s black and white with me,….no gray.

    • votermom says:

      I think, and klown can correct me if I’m wrong, is what he’s saying is that we should not let the ick factor stop us from facing what us already going on and discussing our views on it.

      There’s always huge taboos throughout history about homosexuality but the taboos are already in pieces in current culture.

      However, I for one think that taboos arise for reasons. And pederasty is one of them.

    • dm says:

      I respect your beliefs. While I consider myself a christian – actually a spiritual person – as a minister’s daughter I have seen first hand many hypocrisies. I believe the bible is our guide book, so to speak, I don’t take every word literally. Too many people throughout the ages have “interpreted” it’s writings, often for political ends. Working in the health care field for many years, I also know that there is a distinct difference pathologically between gay and straight. We are all God’s creatures and while there are some physical and mental attributes which seem incomprehensible, ultimately our creator made us. Environment certainly plays a huge role in our development as does genetics. I believe that much of the gay community’s behavior can be viewed as an aberration as such, but I think that comes primarily from the need to hide in the closet.

      I try not to be judgemental and I haven’t been confronted with the issue in an up close and personal way, i.e. family or children. But I have worked with gays, different races, different religions, etc and there are some common traits you can recognize among each group.

      As for the bakers and florists out there, well, until I hear of a Muslim baker or florist getting sued then I tend to lean on the side of it’s their business and they can do what they like.

      • AFVet says:

        Re the verse I put above.
        I find no interpretation necessary.
        Now when it comes to Revelations, different story.

        • dm says:

          I don’t think the Bible was originally written in English…that’s what I meant by interpretation. I guess the more exact word is translation, which of course, can lead to interpretation.

          • AFVet says:

            Translation is a better word.
            I was taught that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and the New in Greek.
            Catholics said Mass in Latin and the people of Luther’s day didn’t understand it.
            Luther had it translated to German so that the people could read it and the Catholic church exploded.
            Hence the Protestant religion came about.
            The King James version is in old English, sometimes hard to know exactly what they are sating so the RSV and the modern English versions were put forth and I guess you could call them translations also to an extent.
            How one interprets something can be a result of many factors.

    • elliesmom says:

      I’m not a Christian so what the Bible says means very little to me, but let’s go with it. The Bible also says only human beings have free will. Animals only have instinct. While I would quibble with that, it is what the Bible says. There are many examples of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom. So if an animal’s instinct makes it homosexual, then God created some of his creatures to behave that way while giving them no other choice. Are those animals not “normal”? Humans have a lot of instinctual behaviors. Some of those behaviors arguably save our lives and the lives of others so not all instinctual behaviors are bad, right? When we judge humans, we say the ones who stray from instinctual behavior, like a mother refusing to feed her child, are the abnormal ones. Why single out homosexuality, which hurts no one if we don’t criminalize it between consenting adults, and leave “Thou shall not rape” out of the commandments? Maybe there’s only black and white for you based on your belief in the words of an ancient book, but it doesn’t mean other people are doing “gray”. I believe in black and white, too. It’s just that some of the things you see as “black” are “white to me”.

      • AFVet says:

        God did create the animals and gave them an instinct that serves to protect them.
        He also gave us dominance over them.
        Humans have free will to determine what they going to do given a set of circumstances.
        You can say the same thing for animals, fight or flight.

        Animals cannot read, people can and use what they read to reason things out, thereby giving them a choice.
        The ability to reason is what sets us apart from the animals

        The word rape is not in the Ten Commandments, neither is the word abortion.
        The word kill is, and covet is.
        Both are sins to anyone with any sense of reason.

        The ancient book that I see as a guideline for life was used by the FF to write the Constitution, another guideline, this time for a republic.

        BTW, I used black and white, some might say right and wrong.
        And then some say maybe.

      • Anthony says:

        Thank you for that

    • jeffhas says:

      What happened to repentance and forgiveness for all our sins?

      Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

    • Underwhelmed says:

      Nobody can quote Christ condemning homosexuality because it’s not in the Gospels. Only the OT can be quoted, and the condemnation of homosexuality there is because the OT Jewish people had to protect their future. It’s why masturbation is also condemned. Men having sex with men/masturbation means no pregnant women. No pregnant women means no future. It’s also why certain foods were banned. Too much risk given their circumstances. The truth is that there is indeed a spectrum of human sexuality, there have always been gay/bi/trans people in populations, going back thousands of years, and guess what? Human race is nowhere near extinct. The only threat a gay man poses is to the patriarchal structure which puts male potency/lineage on a pedestal. Gay women don’t count because they can be forcibly impregnated – although they’re still a threat if they don’t produce a verifiable male heir.

      The condemnation of non-straight people is a social construct. The OT is a manual of life for another people of another time. Christ himself tossed chunks of it out the window, because the OT laws were meant to serve the people. The people were never created to serve the OT laws. Christ in full public view encouraged people to ignore the OT laws. It’s one of the things that got him in trouble with the pharisees.

      As a Christian you have no business declaring who is and isn’t righteous. That’s not your job, it’s beyond your comprehension. God decides who passes the test. Not you. And unless you personally adhere to every last OT stricture about dress, about food, about every last damned thing, you are a hypocrite for cherry-picking.

      • AFVet says:

        Not in the Gospels huh?
        The Epistle of Saint Paul the Apostle to the Romans Chapter 1 vs 26,27,28 states;
        26) For this cause God gave them unto vile affections: for even the women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
        27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
        28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

        Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the Gospels I think you are referring to.
        Cherry picking ?

        “As a Christian you have no business declaring who is and isn’t righteous. That’s not your job, it’s beyond your comprehension. God decides who passes the test. Not you. And unless you personally adhere to every last OT stricture about dress, about food, about every last damned thing, you are a hypocrite for cherry-picking.”

        I didn’t declare anything, I quoted the Bible.
        You are the one that is preaching.
        Are you a theologian?

        • Anthony says:

          I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that what Underwhelmed actually said was correct. Jesus Christ never said a thing about homosexuality. St Pauls Epistles to the Romans (not the words of Jesus) is rife with condemnation of gays. St. Augustine was another judgmental person on that topic, but not Christ. And for the record, I’m not a practicing Christian. I’m agnostic, and consider myself a Roman Catholic in Recovery

          • AFVet says:

            ” Jesus Christ never said a thing about homosexuality.” That was recorded.
            Paul persecuted Christians until his conversion on the road to Damascus by Jesus.
            Jesus was schooled in the teachings of the OT and taught them on the steps of the Temple when he was twelve years old to the amazement of the scholars.
            I find it hard to believe that Jesus would condone homosexuality when the teachings of the OT abhor it’s practice.

          • AFVet says:

            Underwhelmed said that only the OT can be quoted.
            I was trying to say that that wasn’t true.
            I never mentioned Jesus, he did.

        • Underwhelmed says:

          Not a theologian. I don’t trust theologians. You do know that the Bible itself is a man-made construct? I follow, to the best of my meagre abilities, Christ’s admonitions as recorded in the 4 gospels. I don’t grant Paul any authority over me. I am a woman, and he would permanently bar me as an equal. The gender bigotry and misogyny of the church is laid at his feet. Christ treated women as equals. Paul’s so-called teachings are the justification for institutionalised discrimination and oppression/suppression of women, if not outright violence. Tell me where Christ said gays are an affront to God. Tell me where he said women were less than men and had no authority or right to speak. I think if he had said those things they would have been kept in the translations of the gospels and preserved in the Bible. I find it telling that they aren’t there.

          • AFVet says:

            Paul on women,….
            Romans Chapter 16 vs 1,2,3,4.
            1) I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
            2) That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been succourer of many, and of myself also.
            3) Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
            4) Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all of the churches of the Gentiles.

            Well it sounds like Paul gave women a high degree of respect.
            Sounds like they were even leaders of the early church.

            Oppression/suppression of women,?…..don’t see it here.

          • AFVet says:

            Sorry Ma’am for calling you a ‘he’.
            Your avatar threw me off.

      • AFVet says:

        BTW, the pharisees were hypocrites.
        One could compare them to the present day dem party.

  8. DeniseVB says:

    Journalism. She’s back!

  9. jenlyntx says:

    I love Milo. Don’t have to love everything about someone to love them. There are TONS of scary and depressing things WRONG with gay culture. There are TONS of scary and depressing things WRONG with heterosexual culture. Milo is not a child rapist nor does he support child rape. That being said both gays and non gays need to LEAVE KIDS ALONE. THE LONGER kids stay away from sex the better this is a good comment for a Monday.
    Moving on to more delightful things. President Trump is RIGHT AGAIN, and Michelle Fields is to journalism what Obama was to the Democratic Party–LAST NAIL IN DA COFFIN.

  10. DeniseVB says:

    This is a tweet from 2009. Ha.Ha.?

  11. jeffhas says:

    Re: Milo-gate

    we all know some 14 year olds who act like 24 year olds, same for some 20 year olds that act like 12 year olds….

    … and we all either know or have heard of couples where one was older while one was underage, and they lived happily ever after.

    We all know some guys are not necessarily ‘creeping’ at 22 when they date an 18 year old…. but then there are ‘creepers’ for sure, and age differences that get worrisome.

    So, to me THAT is why you have age of consent laws. If you’re over 18, you better be damn careful you know the age of the person you’re screwing around with, and as an adult (18 acting like 12 or not), you take your own chances with the law – if you feel the risk is worth it, go for it mf’er… and if your partner feels at some time like they were a victim, don’t be surprised if they or their family call the cops on you.

    … but, if your partner isn’t a victim or doesn’t want to be a victim, and uses the experience on their journey, well, maybe you found a great partner for life – or maybe you just dodged a bullet. Buyer beware.

    • elliesmom says:

      My issue is with the idea sex among teens is safer for them. When the high school football team is having a competition to see how many girls each one of them can have sex with, I don’t see that as a “safer” environment than a 17 year old who finds herself attracted to a guy in his twenties. I’d love it if kids postponed their first sexual experience until their brains caught up with their hormones, but that’s so old-fashioned. 😉

      • DeniseVB says:

        My dh reminded me of the Dad in Clueless who told the date “you touch my girl, I have a gun and a shovel and doubt anyone will miss you”. I miss the good old days. 🙂

        • elliesmom says:

          My daughter came down the stairs to go to her senior prom in a perfectly respectable strapless dress. Her dad asked who told her she could leave the house in that dress? She said, “Mom did. Do you think I’d pick out a dress that looks this cool?”

  12. swanspirit says:

    Well, we certainly have a variety of opinions, here, regarding a very delicate topic. I might as well add mine.
    First, Milo, is obviously a target of some conservatives who wish to mar his image and sabotage his growing popularity. I am very relieved to know he is anti-pedo, as he puts it. I am glad to know he feels strongly about the age of consent, because I do too. And that can be a variable thing with individuals, considering the difference in the ages of maturity among individuals. I also think there is a huge difference in two people of the same age sharing an experience, than with a much younger and or older more experienced person.
    I knew almost nothing about gays or the gay community, until 1983, when I graduated from Nursing School, became an RN, and had an opportunity to take a travel nurse assignment. Yes, I was from Baltimore, knew the John Waters crowd,but that was more about being weird, not specifically gay..
    I was supposed to be going to San Diego, where an old friend of mine lived, but at the very last second, literally on my way out the door, the agency called and changed my assignment to you guessed it, San Francisco. 1983, was pre-hiv, pre-aids full blown pun intended no holds barred San Francisco. And my nurse manager at the agency was a gay man who sized me up in an instant, and decided he would also manage my introduction to the gay world in San Fran. My eyes were opened, and haven’t been shut since.
    He took me out to clubs, to parties, and he even let me stay at his home when the place I was supposed to stay wasn’t available.
    I walked past the street lined with beautiful young to seeming very young men , all just hanging out, and had to ask why they were there. I was informed that many a prosperous, respectable gay man started out selling themselves at a young age, made lots of money, and went on to school and lucrative careers.
    I learned so much. I learned that there were any number of different ways to have committed relationships, that couples who cruise together either stay together, or not. I learned about “conversions” not the gay to straight kind; and that if you were hot enough, (and back then I was) a gay guy would make an exception for you!! Picture me saying stupidly “but I thought you were gay?”
    So yeah, there are tons of thing about the gay community that might be upsetting to those not familiar. Just as with straights, there is plenty that is distasteful out there. Shocking, even. Sometimes I wish I hadn’t been ” introduced ”
    But for me, it comes down to the individual. Either you are an honest respectable human being, or not. I really don’t care what your orientation is. Just don’t get too weird on me, and absolutely leave the young ones alone.

  13. DeniseVB says:

    A funny thing I read this morning is that “Milo seems to have united the left and the right in denouncing child molestation. Please Milo, advocate for Islam now!”

    I’ve been noticing since the SCOTUS decision on Gay Marriage, the activist LGBT left(anti-Milo wing) seems to be focusing on decriminalizing pedos. This, and them, and Chelsea Clinton, wanting us to accept the Islamic culture, which allows horrible abuses against women, children and gays. I’m just so confused of what I should be outraged about these days. Crazy.

    • AFVet says:

      I am outraged at what I see as willful ignorance when it comes to the Islamic culture.
      If these people think that they are going to change them they are fools.

      • DeniseVB says:

        Re: your comments above on bible translations (which I found the discussion fascinating while whooshing over my head). I think there’s some serious translation issues with the Koran.

  14. blowme0bama says:

    I think Milo was getting to the “consent” thing.

    On ALL other matters, the common law rule was always anyone under the age of 21 was incapable of consenting to making decisions which affected their life, such as control and direction of property and contracts.

    Interestingly, consent to have sex has always been treated differently. Why is that? Without researching hits, I suspect this is where the statutory “consent” age laws derive from because otherwise rape would be a question of consent, but no one under 21 could give consent. So for sex, the level of understanding and maturity necessary is lowered. Why is sex treated differently? I will damned near guarantee you that if you go back and look in your family history, you’ll find some great, great grand aunt or grand mother who had children at 14 or 15.

    I’ll also note there’s an interesting rule concerning contributory negligence that developed over time in some jurisdictions. The law in those jurisdictions would absolutely not allow a claim of contributory negligence, using the care an ordinary person would use under the circumstances, to be asserted against someone under 14 years of age. The law recognized they were children and incapable of doing anything with any sense. Between the ages of 14 to 21, in those jurisdictions, it was PRESUMED they were incapable of using ordinary judgment, BUT that presumption could be rebutted by showing the individual minor had exceptional intelligence, care, blah blah.

    Anyway, I just thought it interesting how the law has treated consent for all other purposes differently than it does for sex.

  15. lyn says:

    • Lulu says:

      Most were fired for not calling in absent or getting permission to be off to participate using a vacation day or a no pay day. Entitlement gets you fired. Most businesses locally have a no call you are fired rule around here (unless you or your kid are in the hospital or doctors office and then need proof of such).

  16. Dora says:

    I don’t mean to dwell on the violence, but it is scaring me. Remember, the progs outside on the streets are agitating for these people to be welcomed here.

    • CiscoKid says:

      Glad you posted that.
      I loved going to Paris, been there at least a dozen times.
      The metro was awesome.
      Stayed at a small hotel on the Rue Cler, walking distance to the Eiffel Tower, room was small but clean and cheap.
      Anyway, last month I was watching a travel program on Paris.
      I don’t know how old the program was, but that Paris disappeared, never to return.
      I’ll never go back, and maybe NYC will be on that list.
      That muslim call to prayer bs has turned me off.
      I’m going to miss Yankee Stadium.

      • Jadzia says:

        I went to Paris last month during my birthday trip and it was nice, but I agree that the area around the Eiffel Tower is probably best avoided. We’ll agree to disagree on the Metro. : ) I’m hoping to go back in the next month or two (am waiting to get paid!!!!) because Mama needs a new purse, the shopping in my city is not too good, and my big sister just informed me that she is NOT going to need me to get her house out of foreclosure after all. That’s something to celebrate for everybody involved.

        So here’s the “Jadzia Tourism Bureau Recommendation of the Day”: the area around the Pantheon is GREAT and there is a little hotel, Hotel Les Dames du Pantheon, that I really, really loved. Beautiful, small/cozy/not “touristy,” nice location, and a free glass of wine at the bar. Not to mention a brand-new elevator that I sure was not expecting for the price. Last minute it was about 160/night, probably cheaper for people who actually plan ahead. I had never been to that part of the city before. There’s a law school right there, so the neighborhood feels kind of vibrant and university-ish. The cab ride to the MOST AMAZING FAMILY-STYLE CASSOULET RESTAURANT IN THE WORLD was cheap and not too long.

    • kanaughty says:

      that dude who set fire to the car while the cop was in there, that would be attempted murder in the US right? that is one person that needed to be arrested that day if anyone was.

      • Jadzia says:

        I would think so. Didn’t myiq used to do criminal law? The car burning thing has been the morons’ tactic of choice for years, but I admit that I am becoming more frightened about what is happened to this beautiful country that I apparently moved to at EXACTLY the wrong moment.

        What all these horrible headlines don’t show is that if you are outside the big cities, France has not really changed very much in decades. We started off in a very small town in the southwest where it perpetually felt like 1955, and the same is true of the medium-ish town (about 7000 people) where my in-laws live. It’s still all farmers markets, mama goes to the boulangerie at least once a day, most of the women are housewives, people dress nice even at the grocery store, the schools require kids to be disciplined and well behaved, people eat at home instead of restaurants or takeout–you get the picture. It’s like two different countries.

  17. Jadzia says:

    Ok, we’ve got folks from all walks of life here. Is osteopathy bullshit? Google is giving me an inconclusive answer. I am having some recurring problems related to too many pregnancies too fast (and a never-treated broken bone that occurred during one of my labors) taken care of, and the rehab lady told me to go to an osteopath. I am resisting because (a) not covered by insurance (red flag); (b) the one she recommended is a man and I’m not comfortable with seeing a man for a lady problem that isn’t going to kill me (yes, that’s my problem, but it is what it is); and (c) I just get a hint of “woo” from the whole thing. Thoughts?

    • NBD says:

      Complete bullshit. Every bit as bad as homeopathy.

      • Jadzia says:

        I’m concerned that it’s worse than homeopathy in that homeopathy is basically the placebo effect, it won’t hurt you (unless you get hurt by delaying effective treatment while you’re futzing around with tinctures or whatever that stuff is called). I do not want anybody cracking my spine or fucking with my neck.

        • DeniseVB says:

          Jad: Are you in chronic, unmanageable pain? Since you said it wasn’t life threatening….vodka /ruit/veggie smoothies may take the edge off. 😉

          My last visit to a doctor was for a UTI about 20 years ago. Got the full 10 day abx round of treatment, went back for a re-check, clear but doc said you’re overdue for a pap test, let’s just make sure. A few days later, Denise we have a problem, we need you to come in for a cervical biopsy. I asked, isn’t a side affect of abx in women, yeast infection? Doc: we want to make sure. Me: the next 5 days, thinking I was dying of cancer. Biopsy done. Another 10 days pass, I’m freaking out, starting to get my affairs in order. Doc calls with results: It’s nothing, just a yeast infection. Have a good day. Gahhhhh!

          I join the TCH group vote of seeking another opinion. Preferably with a lady gynny to seek another opinion.

          • Jadzia says:

            Vodka smoothies? Well, I DID just get a blender! I think I’m going to boomerang back to my regular doctor, who is very good (albeit kind of scary–she’s at least six feet tall, looks like a supermodel, and has a handshake that can crush yer bones).

            I can’t believe that clinics and doc offices make people wait so long for test results. Especially biopsies! Good Lord.

          • Jadzia says:

            I am also looking forward to the vodka smoothie because ON TOP OF ALL THIS OTHER SHIT, I hurt myself yesterday while weightlifting. To add insult to injury, it happened doing the exact same fucking move that landed me in 6 weeks of physical rehab back in law school, so it’s not like I didn’t know better. : (

            Looks like it’s gonna be a couple of months of freezing cold, totally ineffective water aerobics with the little old ladies.

    • It sounds a lot like Chiropractic. If it works for you, great, but I wouldn’t invest a lot of time and money until you try it out.

      • Jadzia says:

        I am terrified of chiropractors! Okay, after reading a story about (IIRC) a Playboy model, young and healthy and the mother of a young child, who had a stroke and died earlier this year after an “adjustment.” Osteopathy sounds like much of the same baloney.

        • lateblum says:

          I know plenty of people who swear by chiropractic treatments. Including a brother, a friend who’s a nurse, and friend who dances and another friend who rarely uses anything other than homeopathic treatments unless it is an infection and then uses antibiotics prescribed by the same MD who treats most everything else with homeopathies. I went to a chiropractor one time and after one very simple examination (and without adjustments) from this well-regarded chiropractor who dug into my spine, I couldn’t walk for 2 days without major pain. I doubt that was what led to my spinal issues that were greatly relieved with the surgery last summer. But I wouldn’t return to a chiropractor nor would I recommend one. Good luck Jadzia.

    • votermom says:

      You broke a bone giving birth?
      I hope it heals but also, wow, you deserve extra yuge Mother’s Day gifts forever!
      And if the kid ever gives you attitude, remind em “I broke a bone bringing you into this world!”

      • Jadzia says:

        It was actually the first kid that THAT happened with and guess what? No gratitude!!!!!! Ha ha. It healed but it did so on its own (Oregon midwife to me: no, we’re not going to treat that because it’s so painful that you would need too many painkillers, EXCUSE ME?????), and the whole region has been a little bit “off” ever since.

    • DandyTIger says:

      I’d stick to real doctors. Find a good female one that deals with your issue. If you’re not comfortable with an alternate treatment, then stay away from it.

      • Jadzia says:

        I’m kind of feeling like that’s the best way to go. Too many years in Oregon and California may have left me more prone to give such treatments “the benefit of the doubt” when down deep, I really am NOT comfortable with them.

      • SHV says:

        “I’d stick to real doctors.”
        With the special snowflake generation finishing med school and post grad training over the past 15-20 years, finding the “right” doctor becomes more and more iffy.

    • Underwhelmed says:

      I think it’s horses for courses. I was saved from serious injury, if not paralysis, by an osteopath. I am only mobile because of my brilliant chiropractor. OTOH, I once had a chiro unspring one of my ribs. Another made a back issue much, much worse. Like just about anything, it’s not the discipline, it’s the practitioner. If you can get a sound recommendation from someone you trust, it’s great. Otherwise it’s very risky. Whatever happens, best of luck! Constant pain is terrible.

    • blowme0bama says:

      Ever been to a D.O.? That’s an osteopath. It’s just a different school of training as compared to traditional medical school. I’d have no hesitation going to one, especially for bone or joint stuff.

      • lateblum says:

        Thanks for the reminder! My favorite and best doctor was a D.O. She pushed me to follow up on tests she had recommended until finally, we discovered I had early stage renal cancer. I’d probably be dead right now if not for her.
        Also the best psychiatrist where I last worked was a D.O.
        I know that is not meaningful to you, but I am glad to have been reminded.

    • swanspirit says:

      D.O.s are equivalent with MD, and most of their practice is conventional medicine. I would go and check him out. If you don’t like him don’t go back.
      Or scout around for a different doctor. But definitely find someone you ate comfortable with.
      They had to break my coccyx( tail bone ) to deliver my first child, because he had such a big head. So on top of everything else, I had to sit on an inflated rubber ring for six weeks after I had my baby. And believe me, I took that thing everywhere, because the alternative was too painful. But it did heal properly, thank goodness.

      • Jadzia says:

        They broke your tailbone deliberately? Holy crap. Mine broke because the kid came barrelling out of me so fast.

  18. votermom says:

    from an ace comment:

    this is why the GOPe types continue to lose…
    They find someone willing to fight, and decide they are icky… and so must be cast out.
    Milo… Trump… Sarah Palin….

    • DandyTIger says:

      Yep. And the GOPe will never change. They want Bush and McCain types forever. Big government, big wars, and bad trade deals. It’s who they are. The only hope is to transform the the GOP to be more balanced with fair traders, small government, and libertarian types. But those groups aren’t backed with the big money.

      My fear is that Trump is an anomaly that will be “corrected” by the GOPe. Which means Dems will be back in power to get back to the EU direction efforts. Which in fairness, is fine wit the GOPe.

    • taw46 says:

      And they “won” nothing by doing this. The left still hates them and still accuses them of all the -isms, now they will add pedophile to the list. The GOPe never fights the Marxists.

      • DeniseVB says:

        A lot of us on the ” center right” hate them too. It’s almost as if they want to lose Congress just to get back at Trump embarrassing them all. I think this is what endears me to Trump and Milo, both want to drain the swamps of DC and the SJW’s.

  19. mothy67 says:

    Interesting read today.
    I have to organize my addled thoughts around the gay part, but there is one thing about which I have no confusion — hands off kids. Physically and mentally.
    My concern today is for the brat. Every kid today has a smart phone and kids talk at recess.
    Thanks Madonna child knows what a blow job is. I remember being about her age when SNL did the women who spit piece. Went way over my head(no pun).
    They are bombarded with sexuality lacking subtlety. Makes me very uncomfortable, but I am not going to allow my apprehension to leave her at sea.
    I should have a few more years. I said the other day that the boys at school are kissing each other. One girl has talked about masturbation. Another sent nude pictures. Come on.
    I consider myself not a prude but they are 10!!!!!
    Having been born into a shitty body I might have a different perspective (imagine the hundreds of hands, albeit caring, that were on my body daily, naked in xray room dark and cold– why I have tried to provide so many physical outlets for monster. Let her please be comfortable in her skin. Ballet is such a gift.)
    Blah, blah, blah stuff hurts my head. The field kids are playing on is astonishingly different than what I had in the 80’s. Then there were more taboos. Ugh.
    It’s overwhelming.
    My parents were 15 and 19 when older bro was hatched. Still together 6 kids later.

  20. CiscoKid says:

    Today is President’s Day and President Donald Trump has been in office one month.
    Lead, follow or get out of the way.
    On second thought, just get the hell out of the way, Trump train is rolling.

  21. Dora says:

    Oh Great! 😦


    JFK Airport Security Breach: 11 Stroll Through Deserted TSA Checkpoint, Board Planes

    No TSA agents were present to check the stream of passengers Monday morning, even as the metal detector went wild, airport officials say.

  22. mothy67 says:

    I never sat down and said hmmm how can I make my life more difficult. I know I’ll be gay.
    I was younger than my classmates. I had skipped 5th grade and had a January birthday (back then you had to be 5 by end of January) I was on my 4th school by 7th. I did not have access to regular day to day friendships. John Toure got on trampoline. Uh-oh. My life changed. That age I had heard my charismatic catholic parents go off about Jody on Soap and Three’s Company. I had to hide it.
    I was like Gregor in Metamorphosis. Not that I was a cockroach but that everyone was held hostage by a truth all wanted to ignore.
    We had no money so we moved a lot. Three high schools. No chance to bond. I tried suicide because I never wanted to hurt my parents by who I was. Obliviously I too failed. By 16 I was a dishwasher. I came home to a note from my mom asking me to buy her smokes so I walked down the hill got jumped. Upstanding young fellows pissed on my face with semi erections telling me they knew what I wanted. I was on auto pilot after that. I went into store bought cigs and walked back up the hill laid the cigs on table went back outside kicked in a basement window and slept on a cement floor covered in piss.
    Perhaps your religion or philosophy decrees homosexuality abhorrent. I have no problem with anyone disliking me. I was 16 had never had even a kiss. Had there been an old dude around that saw my pain who knows my response. How about we don’t place our children in precarious emotional situations? Even if you think gay is wrong do you want any child subjected to degradation? By the way I walked to same store next night. Knew early I would not cower. Pup’s bff’s stepfather’s brother is one of the boy’s. He tried to apologize at a picnic. I said you know that was 1983. Maybe I should have been gracious and accepting an apology, but I didn’t feel like it.

  23. DeniseVB says:

    Finally remembered her name…. here’s the overview because it spans years….

    ….and the 2015 update….

    It captured the nation’s attention, middle school boys were going “he got lucky” to adults going “not with my boy, disgusting”. She was punished with 8 years in prison. They were still together 2 years ago.

  24. mothy67 says:

    We were so poor. I had a roll away bed in the attic with two sofa cushions as a mattress. I had found a book in the bookstore that had gay characters. I hid it under my cushions. There was nothing explicit but my mom found it. She beat the shit out of me. So refreshing when all you want to do is never cause your parents anymore pain and they smack the shit out of you calling you filthy and disgusting. Somehow some fool at Purdue gave me a scholarship. I did not go away to college. I ran away. I loved it. I had friends. Everynight I went to sleep with self hypnosis tapes. I am a heterosexual. It was such a perfect year for a very lonely boy. I was so young and it had been best year of my life. I transferred to Temple to not destroy it. Seems silly at 50 but I was young.

    There are kids out there right now who feel as Anthony and I did. We got lucky in our failed attempts. Some kids do not. Perhaps Milo can shine a light on the isolation. Two regulars on this blog both openly gay both attempted suicide in high school. I don’t think anyone here would accept that of a teen today.
    I feel so flustered trying to express this.

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