Eric Posner:
The World Doesn’t Love the First Amendment
The universal response in the United States to the uproar over the anti-Muslim video is that the Muslim world will just have to get used to freedom of expression. President Obama said so himself in a speech at the United Nations today, which included both a strong defense of the First Amendment and (“in the alternative,” as lawyers say) and a plea that the United States is helpless anyway when it comes to controlling information. In a world linked by YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook, countless videos attacking people’s religions, produced by provocateurs, rabble-rousers, and lunatics, will spread to every corner of the world, as fast as the Internet can blast them, and beyond the power of governments to stop them. Muslims need to grow a thick skin, the thinking goes, as believers in the West have done over the centuries. Perhaps they will even learn what it means to live in a free society, and adopt something like the First Amendment in their own countries.
But there is another possible response. This is that Americans need to learn that the rest of the world—and not just Muslims—see no sense in the First Amendment. Even other Western nations take a more circumspect position on freedom of expression than we do, realizing that often free speech must yield to other values and the need for order. Our own history suggests that they might have a point.
Eric Posner is a professor at the University of Chicago Law School. He is the son of Justice Richard Posner. Justice Posner is one of the most respected legal minds in this country. If I was him I would get DNA tests done to determine the paternity of Eric.
I’m not going to go into all the legal and philosophical arguments in favor of free speech. I’m just going to point out that if democracy and western values are incompatible with Islam then this is a matter of survival.
I would prefer peaceful coexistence, but if that’s not an option . . .
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants – Thomas Jefferson
The Crawdad Hole 
Remember when liberals were all about not being able to legislate morals? Uh-huh. Now they want to legislate manners.
Fuck that noise.
Much of the world actually agrees with US. That’s hard for people consumed with apologizing for America and focusing only on her sins to comprehend, but it’s true. 30,000 Libyans protested for justice for Ambassador Stevens. Only a few hundred terrorists stormed our embassy. So why is the media, Obama, Obots focusing only on a few hundred terrorists rather then 30,000 people? Because the possibility that people might not only support, but actually admire the US, clashes with their ideology.
First of all, Obama’s “strong defense of the First Amendment” is highly exaggerated — he framed the argument as “this is what is in our Constitution” not as “a free people’s right to free expression is sacrosanct” (which is the RIGHT frame, btw). Second of all, he immediately backtracked with the whole “blame the film” meme they’ve been pushing, which is also a bunch of bullshit. Third, he basically endorsed tacit blasphemy laws — the biggest bunch of bullshit of all, but we’ve already discussed that today.
I’m not an expert on the First Amendment (I don’t practice Constitutional law), but I swear I forgot more about it from what I learned in law school than this guy Posner knows (btw, next idiot who wants to say Romney didn’t earn his success because his dad was a rich governor, I’m pointing to this moron as proof that having a great father doesn’t mean shit for the success/brains/talents of the son). As I wrote in the previous thread — the Univ. of Chicago must have the WORST law school in the entire USA. Posner’s basic theory is that the right to free speech is only important when it serves the purposes of whichever party is in control of the government, and that’s about as wrong on the matter as you can get.
High 5!
http://weaselzippers.us/2012/09/25/islamic-battle-flag-makes-its-way-from-cairo-to-nyc-muslim-day-parade/#disqus_thread
islamic battle flag makes its way from cairo to nyc muslim day parade
you want to fly that flag get your ass out of my country
If you look honestly at Muslim majority countries, none of them enjoy our freedoms, and in none of them can a Jew, Christian, Hindu etc be open w their faith in complete confidence of acceptance, or of protection if the rare asshole acts out.
Sorry, but it’s true. The list of the horrors of Muslim- run states is as lengthy as was Hitler’s. Some a little better, some a little worse, but NONE allow free expression. Yet the constant refrain is for the West to accommodate their “culture”.
The supposedly “sophisticated and Westernized” American Muslims chose Yom Kippur (no accident, that) to have a Muslim parade in NYC, where they ranted about Jews, demanded restrictions on speech, and flew a caliphate flag. The same flag that flew over our burning embassies. The next day those same men will be on a talk show all smiles assuring everyone how peaceful and reasonable they are, and taking great offense should you suggest otherwise.
I’m done. I will no more apologize for being suspicious of this movement (it is much more than a religion) than I would apologize for being suspicious of Hitler in 1933.
No, I am not saying kill them all. That’s just stupid. But the West had better wake the fuck up and start loudly defending OUR culture and values. Because they don’t want coexistence and pluralism, they want the entire foundation of Western thought and culture and jurisprudence pushed out by theirs. And no, it is NOT only the ones who strap on bombs who feel that way.
Amen!!!
Yup.
Oh, and to the good Muslims, the few who really do want pluralism and liberty, I feel sorry for you. There were good Nazi party members, too. But the good ones weren’t in control, and didn’t set the agenda. And the definition of the word “Nazi” came to mean the bad ones, not the good ones.
The same is happening with Muslims, but that’s not my fault. It’s yours. Clean your house, or get out of the house, or get lumped with the rest. Those are your choices.
My son has great Muslim friends that wouldn’t hurt a fly. Also, most of the very young highly educated population of Iran wants the freedoms of Westernization not the loon tunes that are running the place. 👿 Article up Drudge stating Hillary did not want Mubarack out because of what ensued! She needs intervention. Send help!
thank you for saying what I feel
Okay, wcmb, but much of the anti Muslim sentiment right now is being triggered by President Obama’s outrageous comments. That’s what he does. That’s his crappy leadership in action. He’s got Americans thinking they have to cater to Muslim EXTREMISTS and naturally people are pissed off about it. But that is not the Muslim world, that is not the ME. That is a composite creation that President Obama has manufactured. People in the ME WERE fighting against these terrorists. The President turned his back on them too when he refused to stand up against extremists.
Furious Libyans attack militia linked to U.S. ambassador’s death
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2-killed-libya-clashes-rage-protesters-extremist-militias-linked-ambassador-death-article-1.1165374#ixzz27XWTDEpc
“We want justice for Chris,” read one sign among the estimated 30,000 Libyans, including families, who marched into Benghazi’s main square on Friday to protest in front of the chief encampment of Ansar al-Sharia. ”
I’m aware. I lauded it, multiple times. I wish them well, and wish our govt would support them. They are trying to clean Islam’s house. Good for them, sincerely.
It doesn’t change anything I just said. I hope that grows, but they are a spit in the ocean at present. They are not the majority. Sorry, but they are not.
I tweeted on 9/12 that now that we’ve seen how this Arab Spring has worked out how about having an American Spring where we celebrate American values & stop apologizing for them.
Greece was under Muslim (Ottoman Empire) occupation from the 15th Century to 1821 (known as “Tourkokratia” Turkish Rule). The Greek Orthodox religion survived in basements under cover of darkness — for the love of God, the Holy Seat of God’s Wisdom, the Hagia Sophia, is still under Turkish Rule in the city the Turks call Instanbul (but is really Constantinople). Not only did the Greeks suffer crippling taxation under Turkish Rule (including the Islamic poll-tax — i.e., the tax for not being Muslim), one of every five boys were taken from families & made to convert to Islam & serve in the Turkish army (“tribute of children”). And that’s not even getting into the usual rapes, murder and other horrors associated with that brutal occupation.
I’m not saying that is what most Muslims want to do today, but I’m not open to any kind of compromise with or concessions to these Islamic extremists who stormed our embassies and killed our ambassador & 3 others. Egypt wants to call for blasphemy laws in the UN tomorrow (rumor) and doesn’t know if it’s our ally; meanwhile we send them 2 billion a year & I saw an ad today asking for donations to Wounded Warriors. Let me repeat that: we are giving Egypt $2 billion a year & they allowed our embassy in Cairo to be stormed & expect apologies for the First Amendment and our soldiers who were wounded fighting in the Middle East need charity? FUCK THAT SHIT.
(That said, yttik raises a good point about the people of Libya — their government was VERY quick to apologize to us for what happened & the people themselves are very regretful — that whole situation I lay firmly at the Obama administration’s feet –we never should have relied on them for security given the recent overthrow of Gaddafi, the new government, etc)
BTW, under Turkish Rule, precious Icons in the Hagia Sophia have been defaced, urinated on, and otherwise vandalized.
Just saying.
https://twitter.com/gopfirecracker/statuses/250785497616642048
I told my liberal FB friends tonight that if they’re more worried about losing their right to have an abortion than they are worried about losing their right to write “OMG” in every other post, then they deserve everything they get. If this doesn’t put Romney over the top, then most Americans don’t understand what makes this country great, and they deserve to lose it. But it’s not fair for the rest of us to go down with them.
And speaking of those dog whistles, Ellie said she heard Obama say that it’s wrong for people to commit mindless violence. She wants to know who gets to decide what’s “mindless”?
Most likely the same idiots who wrote his speech for him get to make the decisions.
THIS.
I’ve actually very sanguine after my pure RAGE earlier today. I honestly still do not believe there is a majority of idiots in America who are willing to vote for four more years of that shit just based on the SCoaMF’s handling of the economy — now that he’s been exposed to the world re: foreign policy too? I’m embarrassed that there is even ONE person willing to vote for him outside of his immediate family. And don’t even get me started on abortion or SSM or any other social issues because Obama is caving on our FIRST AMENDMENT to people who *actually are* conducting wars on women and who kill gay people for being gay — if he can cave on the First Amendment, NOTHING IS OFF THE TABLE.
However, if there actually is a majority of idiots willing to vote for this shit, then this country is too far gone to save.
Top story at Memeorandum:
Scott Brown supporters doing the tomahawk chop.
Only allowed during sports games. /s
President Bush’s response to terrorism:
“These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith..”
Contrast that to President Obama’s response which basically implied, the attack is understandable because we’ve offended the prophet of Islam.
Thank you for reminding me of what Pres. Bush had said. I remember being surprised by his insight at the time.
It’s come to this: Obama is making George fucking W. Bush look better & better everyday in my eyes.
And I was in NOLA for Katrina –so trust me when I tell you I *never* thought I’d be saying that in a million years.
I agree with you completely. I could never have imagined that I’d think of GWB with anything other than contempt.
In this way, BHO reminds me of Carter who inspired me with a positive regard for Nixon(!) And, like you, I never thought Carter disliked the US as TehOnce does.
Agreed – I never thought I would say this …… But I’d vote for Bush …
Islam has its own definition of “innocents”: Muslim (and the right sect of Muslim). Everyone else is fair game.
Link to video Sununu making Joe Trippi stutter on FOX tonight via RCP (I think HelenK recommended it earlier) — Money quote: Sununu flat out says “Let me tell you what the problem is with this President — he’s absolutely lazy and detached from his job.” LMAO! (Have I mentioned how much I love this man?):
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/09/25/sununu_obama_is_absolutely_lazy_and_detached_from_his_job.html
I didn’t know you like Sununu, angie. (sarcasm)
Oh, boy. He used the L word. Get ready for a chorus of “raaaaacist.”
Even other Western nations take a more circumspect position on freedom of expression than we do, realizing that often free speech must yield to other values and the need for order. Our own history suggests that they might have a point.
WHAT?? what other values ? need for ORDER ??? is this guy an American??
No, this guy is a University of Chicago special. They don’t need no stinkin’ Americans.
Let me tell you that for a univeristy with such glowing credentials, some of their departments have not only decreased in size and reputation, they have been closed. Take the dept of psychiatry, for example, it doesn’t even exist any more.
There were a couple of college girls who went to France and wound up in jail over a traffic stop. Apparently they didn’t realize that you can’t exercise your American free speech rights on French cops.
Well, yeah. If you’re in France, French law will generally apply. (This said as someone who is assiduously avoiding the French traffic cops until she gets her French driver’s license.)
“I’m not going to go into all the legal and philosophical arguments in favor of free speech. I’m just going to point out that if democracy and western values are incompatible with Islam then this is a matter of survival.
This is what I was alluding to in the Bill/Mitt thread that we will have to fight like we never have before if blasphemy resolutions or laws start getting passed. I think that would be the first step toward sharia in the US.
By the way, Fox is airing a special called The Intersection of Church and State. Not sure the exact take on the tipic, but might be interesting.
Also, is WordPress acting funky to anyone else? It’s been very unprdictible for me, doing all manner of annoying, strange things.
One of the irritating things WP is doing is covering up the comments I am typing, so I don’t catch my typos, which explains the goofs above.
Yes. It keeps making me log back in constantly.
https://twitter.com/RightfieldRants/statuses/250801575906402304
Greta has Gingrich on tonight and they are slaying B0. I do not have love lost on Gingrich, that’s for sure, but he’s smart, and he has Obama’s number.
Paraphrase of the difference between Hillary and Obama (after Greta summarized Hillary’s schedule this week and compared it to 0”s): The difference is she is a serious person, and he is an ambitious person. There’s a huge difference. Hillary Clinton gets up ever day thinking about policy, and Obama gets up every day thinking about Obama.
I thought that was succinct and accurate.